Disability Law Resource Project and Olmstead Training Project webcast on Using State Housing Agencies to Obtain Affordable, Accessible, and Integrated Housing. Presenter: Steve Gold. March 26, 2003 Operator: Excuse me everyone. We now have Rachel Kosoy in conference. Be aware that each of your lines is in a listen only mode. At the conclusion of today's presentation we'll open the floor for questions. At that time instructions will be given if you would like to ask a question. I'll turn the conference over to Ms. Kosoy. Rachel: Thank you. Hello everybody and welcome to the webcast and teleconference on using state housing agencies to obtain affordable, accessible and integrated housing. My name is Rachel Kosoy. I will be your moderator for today, and I've got a couple of technical issues to review briefly, and a quick commercial before I introduce our illustrious speaker for today, Steve Gold. First I wanted to let you know that some people are tuning in by phone today, and as the operator said, as we're ready to take questions, he will give you instructions on how to queue up and ask a question by phone. We also have a lot of people who are tuning in over the Internet today. You guys can go ahead and submit your questions at any time via e-mail, and the way to do that is if you look on your Real Time player, at the bottom, there should be an e-mail button there. You can click there to send us an e-mail. If that doesn't work for you, feel free to go ahead and send us an e-mail to webcast@ILRU.org. And of course if anybody has any technical assistance needs, you can call us at (713)-520-0232. Okay, I want to tell you briefly about our sponsors for today. We actually have two sponsors for today's event, and both of these projects are based at ILRU. The first project is DLRP, now you all know that if you have anything to do with disability field, you have a million initials to remember, but of course DLRP is a DBTAC, right? So DLRP stands for Disability Law Resource Project. It is the DBTAC based in the Southwest. DLRP is supported by NIDRR. The second project here at ILRU is the Olmstead Training Project and that project is supported by RSA. Okay, I think I've got all that out of the way and now I am very pleased to introduce our presenter for today, Steve Gold. Steve is an attorney who specializes in civil rights for people with disabilities, and he represents exclusively people with disabilities. He also represents ADAPT as well as Not Dead Yet. I'd like to tell you briefly about some of his most significant successes. Mr. Gold success fully brought the curb cut lawsuit, which is Kinney vs. Yerusalem, excuse me, and that lawsuit established that whenever a municipality resurfaces a street, it is now clear that they must provide access to that street by installing curb ramps. Another significant case he litigated is the Helen L. case. This is the lawsuit, which established the legal principle that people with disabilities are to receive services in the most integrated setting possible. It was this principle that the Supreme Court followed in the now very famous Olmstead decision. Mr. Gold has also been involved with other housing cases. One of them is ADAPT vs. the Philadelphia Housing Authority, and through this case, the federal court required that the local housing agency construct 5 percent accessible units, which basically means they are required to be in compliance with the Rehab Act and the Fair Housing Act. I certainly can go on and on about the significant role that Mr. Gold has played in the disability field, and this is just a sampling of his successful career, which protects as well as proactively secures the rights of people with disabilities. And I encourage you to read his entire bio which is on the website so you can know even more. Now, without further delay I will turn it over to you. Steve: Thank you very much, Rachel. Good afternoon, people all over the United States. When Rachel asked me to do a housing radio webcast, one of the things that I realized that was critical that had not been emphasized very much is the role of the state housing agency. Every state in this country has a housing agency. Most disability advocates, when we think about housing, we think of it as a local issue in our towns or counties or rural areas. Today we're going to change that focus a little bit. We're going to look at what people can do on a statewide basis, and the reason that this is for me particularly exciting, is that: A)it will enable you in your states to work with other communities around a single issue, i.e. housing, B)whereas many of you can only get a few people together, for example, to talk about housing and use whatever political pressure you may have to talk about housing, by coalescing and forming coalitions with other people in other states, you will give the impression of having even more people. And C)most often, state housing agencies have never, ever thought about disability, and they are, I think, particularly vulnerable to whatever kinds of organizing you want to do to make them respond. Most often it's really called a state agency, and the reason is under one of the federal laws, that's what it's referred to and they responded accordingly. I'm going to talk on the web page, and we've given out six specific ideas. What I'd like to do at Rachel's suggestion is to go over a few of them, and then take a break and then go on to the remainders after that break. And we'll arbitrarily cut off the break at a certain time so we can make sure we finish the whole thing. In order to fully understand the role of the state housing agency, you have to also understand what the duty is under Section 504 of the Rehab Act with regards to housing of any and every recipient of federal, financial assistance. That's the term of art, federal financial assistance that triggers the duty under Section 504. Every recipient of federal financial assistance must, when building, comply with six or seven of the elements of Section 504 and during this next hour or whatever I'm going to sort some of them out. However, there are certain programs that purely and simply, by arbitrary federal action, have not been considered federal financial assistance, and therefore, they're not under Section 504, and one of the main points I want to convince you all today is to get your state agencies to extend their programs so that these programs are, in fact, covered by the requirements of Section 504, even though the technically they may not be federal financial assistance. So the first point we talked about on the statewide strategies, we're talking about accessible, affordable, integrated housing. Unless the program can achieve all three of those, it's not helping us very much. Some programs may be affordable, but don't have an accessibility requirement. Some may be accessible, but don't have an affordability requirement. Some may not be integrated but may be both accessible and affordable. We're going to try to talk about how to get all three, accessible, affordable, integrated housing. Okay, first thing is -- and really to go back to my introduction as to why I'm excited about looking at the state, is that very, very often the state agencies really do not care that much about the requirements that they may put on the recipients. They will look at themselves as basically just passing money, and a funnel for funds, whether they be federal funds or state funds, but they don't really look at themselves as monitors or part of their responsibility to make sure that the recipients of those funds comply with any of the things that make our lives a lot easier. So the first thing I think you want to make sure is whether your state housing agency requires all the developers whom they fund, and who receive any kind of federal money, do they comply with Section 504 as well as the federal Fair Housing Act amendments of 1988. But let's look at 504. Now, it's not difficult for the state housing agency to require a developer to fully comply with these requirements. And the reason is, it's truly no sweat off their backs to have that requirement. By them requiring it, that will give you guys a major, major handle to follow the money to see who in your local areas have gotten this money, what developers have gotten this money and you'll be able to make sure and know that they have to comply or they're at risk of losing the money. The first item is, you know, what does your state do to actually require the developers to comply? Frequently, what the minimal thing is when they throw out an application, they sign a compliance and this compliance requirement nobody reads basically and it goes on for a page or two and talks about nondiscrimination based on sex, age, religion, blah, blah, blah, does it include Section 504? Does it include the federal housing act amendments of 1988? At least get that in the whole list of requirements. Second, and now we're getting to stuff that the housing agency really controls substantially. This is a federal program called the low-income housing tax credits. In fact, if you look at the date a nationally, there are many low income housing tax credit units in the country as there are public housing units and they are the growing, growing area where the Feds are still providing money. Actually it's tax credits. Now, every amount of money that your state agency receives, and it receives it every year, is based on the number of people in your state. And the federal formula changes, it's not that relevant, but there is a lot of federal tax credits that the state agency allocates each year. And the way it determines who is going to get it or what criteria they will use to award the tax credits is through something called an allocation plan. And if you guys were to ensure that your state's low income housing tax credit allocation plan recognized people with disabilities, gave extra points for programs that specifically focused on accessibility and affordability we're going to get to in a moment. That would go along, long way to make sure that you're going to have accessible units. And the reason that this is particularly critical, and it is critical for the state to do this, is because the feds have said that low-income housing tax credit is not federal financial assistance. Something called a tax credit. Now, whether this is Alice in wonderland fiction, the Feds have said it and we've got to live with it. The way around it -- there are several states, Texas and I think it's South Carolina, have basically required what I'm suggesting now. That is to say, they require that the recipients of the low income housing tax credits, that the housing agency on an annual basis allocates, must comply with the requirements of Section 504. So that a recipient of low income housing tax credit knows that those units -- a certain percent must be accessible, fully accessible. A certain percent of the people living in there have to be people who have mobility disabilities who require that, and there are several other -- and they must be distributed by size of unit, et cetera, so that people with disabilities have a comparable choice of units as nondisabled people. That would really on an annual basis go a long way to require the allocation plan of your state agency includes compliance with Section 504. Second, the allocation plan can give extra points. Now, one of the things you guys have to understand is that low income housing tax credits are historically, at least, been very, very, very much desired by businesses, by banks, by the financiers who are building various housing. It's a tax credit, not a tax deduction. This is a dollar for dollar off the tax liability. So the businesses love this. From the state housing point of view, it's absolutely no sweat off their back to require a compliance with Section 504, and it's no sweat off their back to say that they're going to give extra points to a project that exceeds Section 504. For example, even though Section 504 has, as a minimum, that 5 percent of newly constructed units must be fully accessible, and that at a minimum, up to that same 5 percent of rehabed and altered units must be fully accessible. There is nothing that prohibits the housing agency that says if an applicant for these credits are going to have 10 or 15 percent of the units fully accessible and resided in by people with disabilities, they could not get extra points in the competitive process to get the credit. This would go an incredibly long way in increasing the pull and the numbers of housing units in your local areas. Now, one of the things about the low income housing tax credit that is really important and another thing that's really important is that most of the time you could be going by a housing construction and would have no idea that low income housing tax credits are being used in this area to build those units. And many, many, many states have on their housing agency's website the recipients by street address of the low income housing tax credits going back as much as ten years. What I'm suggesting is from here on prospectively, at least, that the annual allocation plan do two things: Requires compliance with 504 and gives preference and points for those applicants that exceed Section 504, at least in terms of a percentage of units that will be fully accessible. Obviously, the second -- another point regarding this that's really important that your state agency can and should do is once a recipient of the tax credit is chosen, someone has to monitor them. And right now, the state agencies -- many of them, not all obviously, -- but many of them look at themselves as passing the money, passing the credits, and once the recipient has it it's out of their per view. Well, it would really be terrific if a state housing agency -- many of them have the money and the staff. You know, we're in the business of monitoring the grants they've given out and we're going to come to the grants soon, the mortgages that they're insuring, the rental programs that they're providing, and the low income housing tax credits and monitors that the recipients of those programs, in fact, have complied with the agreements that they have -- that they would comply with. Now, the same way that the state housing agency -- that it's easy for them to require these things. From the recipient's point of view, it is also easy for them to comply. And the reason is as follows: The recipient of the tax credit is normally a big an business or a bank that has a tax liability that even, let's assume, that they want to do something good with their tax liability and that's why they're going to accept the tax credit. But they're not normally the actual builders. They are definitely not normally the entity that rents the units or sells the units, and they're definitely not the entity that, you know, basically keeps them up. They are the general partners, the silent partners, but they're also the ones that have gotten the tax credit. And that's why they're in this game. They're in the game to get the tax credit. And they can force their developers, their partners who are the developers and landlords, et cetera, to comply because they are the money people for whom the builders and et cetera look to so they can build whatever they're building. So now of the three players, the state, the business, the recipient of the tax credit, they don't care about the requirements basically. That is to say, I mean they're in business for some other reasons so that getting the two things in from their point of view means nothing. And from the actual builder and developer point of view, he or she or they, they want the money that the tax credit is going to give them. And they will comply, or at least they say they will, but it will be great if the state as a monitor makes sure that they do that so that once it's built we're going to make sure that -- let's say for example a state puts in that they're going to require 10 percent, 15 percent of the units to be in compliance with accessibility requirements and other 504 requirements. Other 504 requirements are very important because it's not -- it doesn't help us very much to have an accessible unit with a person living in there who doesn't have a disability that requires that accessibility feature. One of the items on their Section 504 is that priority is supposed to be given to people with mobility impairments who require the accessibility features. And you want the housing agency, the state housing agency to monitor that, to make sure it in fact goes on. Now, that gets to the issue of accessibility. But we also talked a little bit in the beginning -- and it also goes to integration. And about integration in this regard I'm talking about people with disabilities with people who are not disabled. It doesn't necessarily go to affordability. Now, the way you get to affordability is two separate ways. And let me sort of apologize. I understand -- I really, really do that an awful lot of the housing stuff sounds like we're talking in a different language. And the primary reason, if you guys take any kind of a historical perspective, is that until a few years ago, low income housing was not the province of the disability community and the independent living centers and the state independent living councils, we weren't focused on that. So it is a new language with new program requirement that is we're just beginning to become familiar with and we're just beginning to understand that we have to fully understand as much as other groups understand it. Now, okay, how do we get to affordability with the state housing agency with regards to the low-income housing tax credits? Well, it is very important to know that there are two big ways you get to this. The first way, there are two federal programs, low-income housing tax credit being one, and the HOME program, which we'll get to after the break is another, that have a statutory prohibition against discriminating against persons who have Section 8 vouchers. So in some of the information, and some of you might have been receiving, you want to keep pushing and pushing getting involved with Section 8 vouchers. One of the primary reasons that this is critical is that there is a whole slew of housing out there, namely, the low income housing tax credits, that have to accept a section 8 voucher, cannot discriminate against it. And I say that not so naively to think that the recipients of the tax credits would not like to forget that they have to comply with that, but I promise you that if we know our rights, both the housing agencies and the beneficiaries of the tax credits will make sure that the developers do not discriminate because their tax credits could be in serious jeopardy, and I promise you, a corporation or a bank that has been taking tax credits for a number of years does not want someone writing to the IRS and challenging the tax credit because they're discriminating against a person with a section 8 voucher. So now you have the nondiscrimination handle, which really gives you one of the two handles for affordability. Now, Section 8 vouchers, for those of you -- just let me give you a very simple explanation of what the voucher is. It's basically rental supplement. The individual who receives the Section 8 voucher -- and many state agencies have applied for state -- have applied to HUD and have received their own Section 8 vouchers, and administer them in those areas of the state that are not eligible for applying directly for Section 8 vouchers. But I'm talking -- when I talk about nondiscrimination, I'm talking about anybody who in any city in any town and any rural area who receives -- who has a section 8 voucher will be able to go into a recipient of the low income housing tax credit and if there is a unit available that is covered under the low income housing tax credit, they cannot be denied because they have a section 8 voucher. Which means they spend -- they will have to spend at a maximum between 30 and 40 percent of their total income for rent and the Section 8 voucher, the rental voucher will pay the difference. That could be a lot of money in some of these units. You will be very, very surprised. Obviously I come out of this -- I'm from Philadelphia and my world view is what I live in, but there are many, many, many housing developments and nice apartment houses that have received low income housing tax credits that until you go on the web page and you get the street address, you will not know that. They do not put a sign out in front of their house saying we are a low- income housing tax credit recipient. We do not discriminate against people with Section 8 vouchers. Part of the thing that you guys have to do is basically have a matrix for your areas to know which are the places that have, over the last five, eight, ten years received low income housing tax credits and which of the ones are getting it in the future and you have to be able to know which ones they are and where they are and know that they cannot discriminate. The other way the low income housing tax credit becomes affordable, other than the Section 8 voucher is that every state, under their allocation plan, can set by competitive bid, and some states I know and I don't pretend to be an expert in comparing all the states, but some states give extra points and therefore increase the odds of you getting the tax credit. The more low income housing units and the lower the lower percent of the area median income that you say you will provide housing for, the more point you get, and therefore, the more likely it is that you will receive the housing tax credit. So part of the allocation plan has to be, I would think, for us to say figure out what your SSI recipient level is in terms of the area median income, what percent it is, and make sure a certain percent of the units in the low income housing tax credit are going to cover people who are on SSI and that from the point of view of the person applying for or the business applying for the low income housing tax credits, they will know that they have to provide that number of units for people who are on SSI, regardless of whether or not they have a section 8 voucher and that's very important. That they can only set the rental at a level so that the person on SSI will be able to afford it without a voucher. Which is totally separate from the Section 8 voucher where the Feds -- the FUDs -- the Feds will supplement the fair market rent of the unit. Those are the first -- believe it or not, the first major three items on the outline that I did. What I would like to do, Rachel, at this point since I really do recognize, guys, that this is not a simple concept for those of us who don't practice all the time in housing and who don't get involved in the state housing agency, but it's important for us to become familiar with it and to become real players in the state allocation plan and the low income housing tax credit. I would like to take a break at this point and answer questions if I have then totally lost most of you guys. And I hope I haven't in terms of why this is important and how you do it. Operator: At this time we will open the floor for questions. If you would like to ask a question, please press the star key followed by the one key on your touch-tone phone now. Questions will be taken in the order in which they are received. If at any time you would like to remove yourself from the questioning queue, press star 2. Rachel: We did get in a couple of questions by e-mail. So why don't I start with those while people queue up on the phone. Steve: Please, Rachel. Rachel: Okay, the first question is can you please review how can we know if our state agency is requiring recipients or developers to comply with 504? Steve: You can obtain a copy, an annual allocation plan must be developed by the state agency and submitted to -- I guess the Internal Revenue Service advice. I'm not sure where it's submitted, but there is an annual allocation plan that your state agency must write and it must list what are the requirements for recipients of tax credit. And you want to make sure that it is listed specifically compliance with 504 and preference given to people with disabilities. If it's not stated in there, it is not required. Rachel: Okay, John, are people lining up? Operator: At this time we have no questions, ma'am. Rachel: Okay. Steve: I've lost everybody. Rachel: Well, we know a lot of people -- we can tell that a lot of people are on line, but I imagine that people are listening carefully. Actually you're going a great job, Steve, of doing things slowly and in an understandable way. I have two other questions that came in by e-mail that I'll throw your way. The first one is did you say -- is it true -- that in addition to providing 5 percent of the units to be accessible, that developers must ensure that it's people with disabilities who are actually occupying them? Steve: What I said was -- the answer is I hope I said that. Under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, HUD requires that not only a 5 percent of the units must be accessible, but that priority must be given to people with mobility impairments to reside in those units. Now, this is why I sort of don't answer that question directly for the following reason: Let's take hypothetically that there are no disabled people who want to live in whatever housing units that were built that are accessible. Does the developer or owner have to keep those units open forever for people with disabilities who are not applying? The answer is no. I've never been able to find anything that says how long they have to keep them open, but there is no question that if we know there are people with disabilities with mobility disabilities who require the housing, who want the housing, they have to receive priority, and our job is to know ahead of time which of those places are being built so that we can tell the developer ahead of time we have people who are ready to move in. For those that have already been built, and may be fully occupied on March 26th, 2003, we want to get in writing to the owners of those places that when and accessible unit becomes available, we have people who want to move in. That's the way we get the priority. Rachel: Okay, great. That was very helpful. Before I ask this next question, I just want to let you guys know that I just -- somebody came and waved a sign to me in my office letting me know that had are over 100 people listening in. So do not be shy, guys. No question is a bad question. Steve: Correct. Rachel: And it's not often that you have Steve Gold at your disposal to ask a question. So please, please come forward if you have a question. Let's see, some other e-mails. In our county most of the affordable dwelling units that are sold at a reduced cost for income eligible individuals or families are two to three story town houses. Does 504 apply and what would be required for wheelchair accessibility other than an accessible entrance? Steve: First, let me do it backwards. Accessibility is more than an entrance. Accessibility requires, under Section 504, full compliance with something called the uniform federal accessibility standards. That is a very complicated set of standards, but it is full compliance, bathrooms, kitchens, et cetera, et cetera. The whole 100 yards, much, much more than just an accessible entrance. That's the first point and then I'll go backwards. In their area they're building affordable housing in two or three stories or two-story housing. I don't remember, Rachel, what you said. Let me tell you what we have done successfully. First of all, if the caller, when they used the term of art affordable, and it is a term of art, means that there has been some kind of federal money involved, whether it be -- we're going the deal with the Community Development Block Grant or HOME money after the break. Any of those traditional federal monies, or whether it be low-income housing tax credits. There is absolutely nothing in either the Old Testament, the New Testament or the Koran that says you cannot build these houses that they are not fully accessible. One of the things that we have now done with some varying degree of success, not completely, is rather than have two townhouses, three stories each separated, we put two of them together and the first -- and we made the town house to be the width of the two of them and the first floor is accessible, and the second floor is a town house for another family that may not be accessible. So you can clearly do it if you want to. Every architect in the country knows how to do it. This is not magic. Right? The fact that it is a quote-unquote town house is irrelevant. Rachel: Okay. All right, that was helpful. Now, I have one other question that just came in and this one I guess people are really wanting to make sure they know where to find information. Steve: Good. Okay. Rachel: So they want to make sure they know where to go to find out which properties are using the low income housing tax credit. Steve: Many states, not all, and if your state doesn't, you should e-mail me and I can get -- well, I can tell you how to do it yourself. There is a special web page that HUD has. It is not WWW -- it starts off LHITC, and I think I turned my computer off. If you e-mail me I can give you the exact address. And by state the low income housing tax credits are listed, but many, many states have their own -- the housing agencies have their own web page, and they will tell you the name of the developer, the street address of the units, the total number of units, the total number of units covered by low income housing tax credits. So the fact -- the fact that the developer may have First Union Pacific bank, but the name of the housing is Cherry Hill Dwellings, you won't get lost in that because you're going on know that it's at 1123 north 2nd street and it will give you the street address which is the most important thing. Sometimes it will give you the developer's phone number. The other thing that's very important is that most states with the low income housing tax credit require that the deed to that property show that compliance with the housing agency's requirements is a condition of the deed, meaning as follows: Let's assume that the company No. 1 received the tax credits. And company No. 2 was the builder. And they got this in 1995, and in the year 2000, you know, they wanted to sell them, both the property and -- I don't know whether you can sell the tax credits. It doesn't matter. The restriction goes with the deed to the property so that once you get the street address, if you can get -- most places you can go to the property office and you will find the deed has that restriction. But the simplest way to get the list by your town, by your zip code, et cetera, should be through your housing agency's website. Now, I fully recognize they all don't have that, and if your state does not, get to me and I will give you both the federal web page address and if you still have difficulty, and you're that into it, I'll help you. Rachel: Okay, sounds good. And also, Steve, after we finish today, if you send that to us, we will make sure to put that up on the website. Steve: That will be the easiest. Rachel: We can do that later this afternoon. S teve: The only trick on this one is unlike most other websites, there is no WWW, there is no http. You start right on -- I know the first thing is L. H. I. T. C. and I think there is something after that and I'm blanking on it. Steve: That would be great. Thank you very much. perator: Ms. Kosoy, we have some questions queued up here. Rachel: Steve I'll leave that up to you. Steve: Two more and then we're going to go on to the other parts -- two or three more. Operator: Our next question comes from Carolyn Walker. Caller: Hi, Steve, how are you. Steve: Very well, how are you? Caller: We have a young lady here attending our teleconference, Mary, who has a question for you. Caller: Hello. Yes, I want to find out -- now you were saying with regards to the percentage that these places have to come into compliance is 5 percent? Steve: Under Section 504, the minimum is 5 percent. Caller: Okay, now, if you're aware of a particular building or a place that houses -- you know, facilities for people with disabilities, and you find that they are not in compliance and it's lower than 5 percent, what do you do? Steve: The first thing you've got to do is find out what the source of the funding is. Clearly, my answer would be one thing if they received low-income housing tax credits. It may be something totally different if they received the community development block grant money. It depends on the source of the funds. Caller: Okay. Steve: And you've got to find that out and then we can go different directions depending on the funder. Caller: Because I have been -- I just recently contacted a facility that I think is a high rise, and you know I was requesting with regards to housing, and the lady, she just automatically told me that they only had one percentage there for people who were, you know, disabilities, only 1 percent and she gave me indications that there is more than just that particular building that's like that. Steve: Well, there are many, many places in the country that have received federal funds after Section 504 regulations for housing went into effect, which is 1988 or '89. Caller: I see. Steve: And the federal Fair Housing Act went into effect the staple year. Unless they received federal funds since that time -- Caller: Okay. Steve: -- and used them for either new construction or alterations and rehab, they are not under Section 504. Caller: I see. Steve: But we're now 15 years beyond that, guys. There has been a lot of federal money in those 15 years. If they have received federal money for rehabilitation and/or new construction, then they must have complied. Caller: So you're saying like basically the places that say in the last five -- Steve: Almost 15 years. Caller: Prior to that -- Steve: Prior to that, if they were built -- if the high rise was built prior to 15 years ago, and they have received no federal money for new construction or alterations since 1988, they may have to comply, but not because of the new construction or the rehabilitation. There is only one other way and it's too complicated to get into on the phone. Thank you very much. Caller: Thank you. Operator: Our next question comes from Cindy Jones. Caller: Hi, Steve, you said something about setting the rate for the income for rental -- the rental income. Can you go over that again? Steve: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Low-income housing tax credits are competitively allocated by the state. Most often, based on my perception at least, you know, there are many, many, many more applicants for these credits than the amount of credits they can give out. My mind says that for every person in the state they get like 1.75 per year worth of tax credit. So it's a limited amount of money. Now, let's assume that there are ten businesses that are applying for two -- for the tax credits. Well, the state can say to these -- to these ten that we will give five points for a -- additional points in bidding in competition for the tax credit for every increase in low income housing that you provide for, you know, whatever way you want it. Let me make it concrete. Let's assume that right now that it's 20 percent of the units are 50 percent or lower of the area median income. Let's assume that they say we'll give another 20 points in the competitive bid if you go down to SSI level and they can do it any way they want. The only thing that the housing agency is concerned about is they want to make sure that the mix of housing is sufficient for the developer to be able to build the place and make it fly. But we have known lots of places where they have put a sweetener in for competitive bidding to increase the number of -- how low they will go in terms of rent. How low they will go in terms of income, and give extra points for the banks and businesses in their bidding processes. Does that explain it, Cindy? I feel like I have not clearly said it. Caller: That's good. Operator: Mr. Gold, did you want to take one more question, sir? Steve: Sure, quickly. Operator: Our next question comes from David Burns. Caller: Hello. Hi, Steve. I think -- this is D. J. from the independent center in VA. I think you just answered my question. I'm going to ask you to repeat it one more time. Steve: Or try to say it a little bit more understandably. Caller: I'd appreciate it. Steve: I understand it's complicated. All I'm saying is that because the tax credits are competitive, that is to say, there are more people who want the credits than there are credits for the state agencies to give out. That means that the state agency can say to them to the bidders, we will give you extra points, meaning if you get enough extra points you're going to get the credit, if you in your application agree to do more low income people than you would otherwise do and they can set whatever it is. And the state agency can say we'll give five points for every 5 percent that's below X. or Y., whatever. But they can set it any way they want. Let me give you by analogy, in 2001 and 2002, when the Feds issued the notice -- the notice for their Section 8 vouchers, they gave extra points to any housing authority that agreed that 15 percent of the vouchers would be used by people with disabilities, and they gave extra points to any housing authority that agreed that at least 3 percent of the Section 8 vouchers would be used for people who were in the HOME and community-based waivers. So that many, many housing authorities that did not say they would do that, they didn't get any vouchers because they didn't get the extra points. So by analogy, when businesses and banks are applying for these tax credits, they want to get as many points as they possibly can because it's competitive. Some people are going to get them and some people aren't. And state agencies are the people that control what the criteria will be for who is going to get it and they can set it as they wish. Caller: Thank you so much. Steve: Okay? I'm going to move on. Caller: Okay. Steve: Rachel, okay? Rachel: Yes, we're getting more questions in, but I agree with you. Steve: Let me move on quickly and I will take more questions. Rachel: Great. Steve: Rachel has told me after teasing me about my Philadelphia accent that I'm supposed to speak slowly though. The last three items on the six points that we talked about, many, many states get -- receive Community Development Block Grant and administer them as a state agency the same way that many state housing agencies receive HOME money. Now, the reason I say that is because most of the time, most of us when we think about Community Development Block Grant, we think about our local city, our county as the recipient, direct recipient from the feds of those federal funds. These are clearly federal financial assistance as opposed to what we talked about in the first half of this web, the tax credit. These are clearly recognized as federal financial assistance, which means that there is no choice -- Section 504 must apply. Now, the state agency receives these funds to same way for parts of the states primarily rural parts, but other parts as well, that your local cities receive the money for. And you want to make sure, critical, that when the state administers the Community Development Block Grant and their HOME money, whether the HOME money is for rental assistance or the HOME money is for new construction or et cetera, that someone is monitoring to make sure there is compliance with Section 504 of those funds. And by analogy, and it is by analogy, one of the complaints that I frequently get is that a local city receives Community Development Block Grant money. It then gives it to a community development corporation, and basically thinks it can wipe its hands of any Section 504 requirements because they say, well, we give gave it to the CDC. It's their responsibility. Answer, no. The recipient is the state when it's a state CDC in HOME money and the recipient is the city. And whether they then decide to reallocate and redistribute, that's terrific, but it doesn't obviate their duty to make sure there is full compliance with Section 504. And what you want the state to do is absolutely make sure that it's being complied with. Now, CDBG money can be used for many, many, many things, including -- and one of the things I want to encourage people to urge their states to do -- is a home modification program. It would be really important if every state using CDBG money had a huge pot of money, federal money, to do home modification, whether it be on home ownership, it doesn't matter, rental, it doesn't matter so people do not have to move out of their homes if they're disabled and their homes can be made accessible. Some states are doing this already. One of the things you have to do, and this is point No. 6, is the state that receives the Community Development Block Grant money directly, and the states that receive HOME money -- and by the way, some states even receive Section 8 vouchers directly and administers them as the state agency. They have to file with HUD something called a annual consolidated plan. Now, one of the things that we have seen on a local level that's been very effective that I don't know whether it's been done on any state level, but by analogy ut it should be as equally effective. Is that most of the time when recipients of these federal monies do their consolidated plans, first of all, they have to have public hearings twice a year, and they have to have their proposals out there so people can respond. They almost never see people with disabilities. That if we knew when the various state agencies were having public hearings on their consolidated plans and twice a year we're going to them and saying to them -- and the consolidated plan must state by priority what are needs of people with housing, and you don't see anything in there dealing with disability, it's a terrific time to organize and to educate and to get on the agenda that from the state level housing for people with disabilities, affordable, accessible, integrated housing for people with disabilities has to be part of the consolidated plan. The same way earlier on in the webcast I was talking about the allocation plan for the low income housing tax credit. There is something called a console dated plan and it's a federal requirement and interestingly enough, if you were to go and you were to object that there was nothing in there about people with disabilities. Under the law, they must note that someone came and testified about that nothing was in their plan and they must tell the Feds how they responded and what are they going to do about it. The experience that we've been having is that the more we do it, the more disability gets on the agenda, the more housing for people disabilities gets on the agenda. And clearly, part of the consolidated plan has to deal with those three parts. You know, affordability -- what is the state doing? And one of the things I didn't talk about at the beginning, but is totally doable is that frequently states have 100 percent state money that they do for mortgages, that they do for whole ranges of different kind of housing. Well, there is nothing that prohibits them to say that recipients of these monies have to comply with Section 504 even though there is no federal money involved. They can do it if they want to. They can do it if they think they have to because you guys are going to be back in six months asking them questions about their consolidated plan. You guys are going to be back in six months to ask them why they haven't identified people living in nursing homes as a high priority to get accessible housing? Why they haven't with their Section 8 vouchers the state recipients of that given people who are in nursing homes and other people with disabilities the highest priority to be recipients of their Section 8 vouchers, all of which is doable. All of which they can do if the consolidated plan says it. They have to live by their consolidated plan. You can hold them accountable to their consolidated plan. The historical experience we have is that we basically have them on there and therefore the boys -- the players are the people who go there and they get what they want. It is not that hard for us to become part of that. The other thing our experience has been is that a lot of the housing agency people really want to do the right thing. And historically, they have been sort of having to respond to the cities, the big developers, you know, the public housing agencies, you know, because those are the people who play the game and know the rules. Well, we're going to have to become part of that agenda. Okay, a wholly other point that hasn't been looked at, but on the state level is critical. A few minutes ago I talked about how, for the fiscal year 2000 and the fiscal year -- I'm sorry -- 2001 and the fiscal year 2002, the HUD issued something called fair share vouchers where they gave extra points under their Section 8 vouchers to applicants that said that they would do 15 percent of the vouchers would be for people with disabilities and another 3 percent in addition to the first 15 percent would be people who are on home and community-based waivers. Well, unless -- our experience has been that this has not been complied with, and that a very limited sample -- and I concede it's limited opinion the recipient of these fair share vouchers have no idea what the HOME and community- based waiver is all about or who is on it. And they are clearly not talking to another state agency called the Medicaid agency, the people who might administer the HOME and community-based waivers to find out who would be the beneficiaries who would need who are eligible for these Section 8 vouchers. So one of the things you want to do with the wholly different state agency is whatever state agency administers your Medicaid, medical assistance, very often it's your state welfare department, you want to get to them to find out what they're doing with your state agencies to make sure that those states that have -- and you're talking large numbers -- and these are available. I'll tell people how in a second, to get for every different housing agency and state housing agency. Local public housing agencies and state housing agencies that applied for and were awarded Section 8 vouchers and have told HUD that they would give them this to people with disabilities and give them to people with -- on HOME and community-based waivers and they haven't complied. And the latter -- they didn't even know who they are. It's one thing for them to say we're giving them to people with disabilities and that does not necessarily mean exclusively people with -- it can be any kind of disability. And the same thing on the waiver, it could be any kind of a waiver, but they have to know the people on the waiver. They have to know what a HOME and community-based waiver is all about and what it means. Clearly your Olmstead plans could require those two state agencies to talk to each other and to coordinate so that -- and you know there is nothing that says the same way when we talked about more than 5 percent low income housing tax credits, they could get more points with HUD or they could have gotten more points. We have not seen -- at least I have not seen yet the fiscal year 2003 fair share notice. So I don't know whether the same two extra bonuses are in the fiscal year '03. But clearly, they could have for '01 and '02 said 25 percent, 30 percent -- 50 percent, and they would have gotten more points from HUD because HUD on a competitive basis was saying we will award you them based on that. Okay, those are the six points in the handouts that were given. Before I go back to questions, I want to go over a few other things that you guys should be doing on a state basis. First, I really think it's important to start a dialogue between the disability community and the home builders and developers. We talk -- there is no reason whatsoever that the home builders and home developers cannot on their own, without universal access provisions -- they are simple and all it requires is that they do it. And when I talk about the home builders, I'm obviously talking about talking to your state -- there is home builders associations. There are state architecture associations. They probably have never met a statewide disability group. It is worth talking to them about universal design. Another thing that may be some of you have done on a statewide level is, you know, basically politics 101. We need some angels in the state legislature who really believe in disability so that when any kind of housing issue comes up before them, they're talking disability. And a few minutes ago I was talking about state -- 100 percent state funded programs, whether they be mortgage, whether they be subsidies, I don't care, state rental programs. You know, they could all have a disability component if either a legislature pushed for it or we got it with part of what we wanted. What else? Many, many, many states have their own state fair housing provisions. Many of them have their own state fair housing offices. It would be really -- I've never done a survey, but it's really important obviously for these guys in those units to be very sensitive and aware of Section 504. Most of them are fully aware of the federal fair housing amendments of 1988 in terms of new construction and reasonable accommodation, et cetera. They are not aware of Section 504, and it would really be terrific if they did become aware of that. Last, and I'm going to open up again for the next 20 minutes or so for more questions, every state has over it a regional HUD office that, you know, we all may have our gripes sometimes about national HUD, et cetera, but it would really be important if on a state basis the regional HUD people knew there was a state coalition of disability folks that were meeting with them regularly to hold them accountable. It doesn't occur and they get away with a lot. Okay, before I open it up, the federal -- to find out whether your state and whether your city received extra points for the fiscal year 01 and 02 on the fair share vouchers, if you go -- I think my website has it. I don't know what it would be listed under, but if you go to the website and click on the searchable archives. You should be able to get it. If it's not there and I find out I'll put it on there probably Monday. Rachel, you want to go to more questions now? Rachel: You won't believe it, but I just got 25 during the time you were talking. I think it might be a few more. Steve: That means I wasn't very clear, huh? Rachel: No, actually it's questions more about specific situations. Steve: Okay. Rachel: And so John, do you want to instruct people to line up by phone as well while I get started with these? Operator: Yes, ma'am. If you would like to ask a question, press the star key followed by the one key on the touch-tone phone. We've got one in the queue right now. Would you like to go ahead and take that question, sir? Steve: I don't care. Sure. Operator: Our next question is from Tina. Mr. Gold, when you said fully accessible under 504, give me a total definition of fully accessible? Does that mean -- (Inaudible). Does it also include a shower? Steve: Yes. That's easy. The answer is yes. The uniform federal accessibility standards are very good and they're everything. Yes. You can get a copy of them, if you want to see what they are from the Architecture Barrier Access Board in Washington. They're also on HUD's web page under -- I think uniform federal accessibility standards. Rachel: We'll go ahead and put that link up as well for people. Steve: I can get you all that, Rachel. Rachel: Somebody else wants the HUD address. Somebody sent in -- Steve: Let me tell people on the phone, don't get discouraged with HUD's web page. It is not the easiest one to manipulate around. Give yourself some time and you can get through it, but I will try to get you to the specific subpart of where to get this stuff. I'm going to be out of town Thursday and Friday, so give me until next week and Rachel and I will make sure you have all the links on this web. Operator: Mr. Gold we have one more question queued up on the phone here. It comes from Nancy Watts. Caller: This is Sue from Ohio. My question is our local housing authority claims that they can't apply for the next round of Section 8 vouchers because they didn't use their capacity the last time, the last round. We can tell them and they know for a fact though that we did more than use our capacity of Section 8 vouchers set aside for people with disability. How would you suggest we advocate for reapplication? Steve: Okay, what I would suggest -- this could be a win-win. I want you to go to your housing authority and tell them that you -- I assume you're an independent living center; is that correct? Caller: Yes. Steve: That you will be able to get -- they should amend -- every housing authority has an annual plan. Now we mention a third plan, an annual plan. If they would just amend their annual plan so that whenever this is up, that anyone with a mobility disability who comes through the independent living center will be given priority for a section 8 voucher, you will make sure that these are all used so that the housing authority gets up to 100 percent, and therefore, people with disabilities will get priority. You guys in the independent living centers will be able to provide that service and the housing authority will be able to tell HUD they're now at 100 percent utilization. Caller: So you're saying if we use our -- we fill our capacity that would count as 100 percent. Steve: You've got to go beyond your capacity. If you're a housing agent for 01 and 02 applied for a fair share and said 15 percent and they used all that, there is nothing that says that they cannot amend their plan that says 60 percent of our vouchers are going to be used for people with disabilities. There is nothing that says that their annual plan that says anyone with a mobility impairment will be given priority with to receive a section 8 voucher. Theoretically, you could have 100 percent of the recipients of Section 8 vouchers be people with mobility impairments. You've got to amend your plan so that the housing authority realizes that it is to their advantage to work with the independent living center so -- you see, we know who the people are. Caller: Right. Steve: We know where the places are that they could use, and most housing authorities don't give two hoots about Section 8 vouchers because it's not bricks and mortar. It's only pieces of paper. So even though people on the phone may not realize there are probably in this country more Section 8 vouchers than there are public housing units, right now. So in terms of us getting potentially affordable -- not necessarily accessible -- affordable, that section 8 is much more important just in terms of numbers. So you want to basically convince your Executive Director and the board of your housing authority that you guys will help them get up to 100 percent by them amending their annual plan so that people with disabilities will be given first crack at using these Section 8 vouchers. And the second thing you want to do is in terms of accessibility because just having a section 8 voucher does not necessarily get you an accessible unit. Caller: Okay. Steve: One of the things with minimal success -- this is a real fight -- has been to get the housing authorities to go above -- right now housing authority can go up to 110 percent of something called the fair market rent. That's the rent set by HUD for your area. They can go up to 120 percent for people who need accessible units by going to the regional HUD office and getting permission. It's called reasonable accommodation. Caller: They've been pretty reasonable about that. Steve: Now if you can't find accessible units at 120 percent. They can get to national HUD, and if you guys can find units that really are accessible above 120 percent, you know, those you want your housing authority to go to national HUD to get a waiver so that you can get more than 120 percent of the fair market rent so you can get accessible units. And the argument is two words, equal opportunity. A nondisabled person may be able to find a unit that they can have access to at 110 percent. A person with a mobility disability may not be able to find an accessible unit that they can have access to unless it's at 140 percent of the FM R. or whatever. Those are the two things. Caller: Is that advocacy on an individual basis? Steve: No, I can tell you that the protection and advocacy people in Washington, D.C. very effectively did is they got part of a lawsuit set. That the Washington, D.C. authority did on a system wide basis. That they went to HUD and said because our housing market is so tight, we want a waiver, you know, across the board, not on an individual basis because the problem with the individual basis is if you find a unit at 140 percent for example of the FMR or the time you go through that damn process the landlord could have gotten rid of the unit. You want to do it proactively and take the offense on that. Caller: Going back to the amending of the plan though for this coming year, we are pretty much out of luck. Steve: Amendments to the plan on a rolling basis. You have to find out when the -- and this is listed on the HUD -- there is something on the HUD web page called HUD profiles, H. A. profiles, housing authority profiles and it will tell you when your housing authority's annual plan is due. Caller: The application process is finished? Steve: No, it's truly a rolling process. Every housing authority is different in terms of when it's due. Rachel: I know actually you have some terrific questions, but I do have 30 questions here. Steve: Go ahead. I'm with you. Rachel: Let's see if we can get to some of them and we also do promise that all the questions we don't get to, we will respond to you. It might not be until next week -- Steve: It will be next week. Rachel: It will be next week. Steve: I'm out of town after tonight, guys. So if you e-mail me, I will get to it next week. Rachel: And we will forward to Steve all of the questions that don't get answered, okay? We have a couple of questions here that have to do with different kinds of disabilities. And guys I'm going to paraphrase a little bit, but the questions are about people who have mental illness as well as people who do not have mobility impairments. Steve: Yes. Rachel: So can a provider give preference to someone who needs the physical accessibility features over somebody who doesn't? And then also can you talk about how 508 applies to people with mental illness. Steve: First it's 504. The person with a mental illness may not -- does not normally need special accessibility features for getting in and out. They may need accommodations so that their units are usable for them. For example, I have represented persons who due to their mental illness -- for example only -- had to keep their television on really loud, and what we did as a reasonable accommodation for that person under Section 504 is to require the landlords that received federal financial assistance to sound proof their apartments so that their neighbors could not complain and so that the people could not be kicked out. The answer to the question is 504 protects all people with disabilities. There are many, many different ways of making accommodations. The 5 percent rule deals specifically with mobility disabilities, but a person with a mental illness cannot be discriminated against because they have a mental illness and either the 5 percent or the other 95 percent of the units. Rachel: Okay. Steve: Let me give you another example of people with mental disabilities. There are some people with mental disabilities whom I've represented who their illness -- they smoke. And they cannot basically make it without smoking. And there are many places now that are quote-unquote smoke free. What is their right? Well, you have to work out an accommodation for them, whether it be a special filter for their apartments, special locations on the property where they could go, etcetera, etcetera, but we can be creative enough to meet those needs. Rachel: Okay. That's good. Let me see if I can squeeze a few more in here. Steve: Please. Rachel: This is asking for a review. Can you please review what you said about how somebody with SSI can afford the tax credit housing? Steve: Yeah, by having your state allocation plan for the low income housing tax credits require that in order to be a bidder and a recipient of the low income housing tax credits, X. percent of the units have to be affordable by a person whose income is SSI period. Not difficult. That's the answer. Rachel: Okay, got it. I'm sorry, somebody was talking to me. Steve: Right now the federal law may require that 40 percent of the units be at 80 percent of the area median income. Okay, but there is nothing that doesn't say that 10 percent of those be at the SSI level. That's all I'm saying. I'm saying your state; by setting the criteria for their allocation plans can set it any way you can force them to set it. And if you want to make sure it's SSI level then you've got to fight for that. Rachel: We do have a question, SSI -- are you also referring to SSDI? Steve: Yes, but normally SSDI is more income than SSI. SSI for people with disabilities is a about floor income wise but the answer is yes. Rachel: All right, let me think -- okay, we have a question from Texas. This organization is working with the Texas public housing authority to educate them about the implications of Olmstead and really their goal is to increase the number of housing vouchers or units that are available for Texans who are transitioning from institutions. Do you have any state specific advice to help them with this outreach? Steve: Absolutely. Your state housing agencies -- there are two things or several things they can do. First, all of your Section 8 vouchers could be used to transition people out of institutions per an Olmstead plan. Second, many public housing authorities, local public housing authorities, apply to the housing agencies for state housing agencies for money. Your state housing agency should make as a condition a receipt of that other money that some of the Section 8 vouchers that your local housing authorities have will be used to get people out of nursing homes as part of the annual state plan. Especially you guys in Texas, remember Lyndon Baines Johnson. He knew how to bargain. That's what we're talking about here. Rachel: Okay, let me throw one last one at you. I'm watching my clock. Steve: I've got time. Rachel: All right, there are actually a bunch of questions about how the developers are supposed to ensure that units are set aside or preferences given to people with disabilities. Steve: Priority. Rachel: Thank you. So let's see, one person said that they are developing a statewide housing registry for people with disabilities. Steve: That's a great idea. Rachel: That's what they wanted to know. Steve: What's the question. I thought you said they were doing that. Rachel: Hold on, let me see. They're still having difficulty with the landlords and developers keeping accessible units open for people with disabilities. They're developing this registry. Have you found this to be helpful? Steve: The answer is yes we have. We've done it in Philadelphia -- we're doing it I hope in Philadelphia on a local level where we're going to basically have a computer matrix by type of federal money, by type of housing, credit, et cetera, et cetera, and street address and who the owner is, what the phone number is and we've got to hold them accountable and keep on them and know when a unit is available and we also have to make sure they know that we have people who are ready to move into those units because if a unit becomes available and you've given them notice you have someone who meets their tenancy requirements and they don't use it, they're in trouble. But yes, we're going to have to know who they are and we're going to have to take the initiative to make sure they know we have people available and ready to go in. Rachel: Okay. In that same vein, some person here is dealing with buildings that use lottery systems. So do you have suggestions for how they can still make sure that they're complying with 504 here in the lottery system? Steve: Yes. You have two lotteries. You have a lottery for disabled people and you have a lottery for nondisabled people. A nondisabled person cannot trump a disable person for those 5 percent units if a disabled person wants to go in one period. The fact that they're doing that lottery is irrelevant. They cannot use a state lottery or a local lottery to trump a federal civil rights requirement. If they want to do a lottery, they can do two, one lottery for people for whom who can only live in the 5 percent unit. Remember, a few minutes ago I told you about equal opportunity. What good is a lottery if the person with the disability wins and the only units available are nonaccessible? Answer -- none. Rachel: None. Okay, I'm trying to look and see if I have any really short questions, and I don't think I do. So what I'm inclined to do now is try to wrap up and I do want to let you guys know that we can -- in addition to responding to questions individually, we can collect those answers and then post all of them on the website so that if you look back later next week, you can see your questions and other people's questions with the answers. And, Steve, before I sort of do thank yous and closing, is there anything else that you want to say or stress? Steve: Yes. I do not expect either a state or local housing people to roll over and say, oh, my good God, we've been discriminating against people with disabilities. You guys, this is another front for organizing. This is another front for a battle. That's the only way we're going to get affordable, accessible, integrated housing. Rachel: Okay. And, Steve, first of all I really want to thank you as I thank everybody who is sending in these questions does. You did a great job of giving us a lot of information and yet we also realize it's really just the tip of the iceberg here. If people -- again, you will see additional questions and answers on our website. If you're interested in more information about Olmstead or other housing issues, you can look on the ILRU website where you went to find the information about this webcast. And Steve Gold also has a website which is listed WWW.stevegoldada.com. And I just want to say quick thank yous. The sponsors of today's events were the two projects at ILRU called the DLRP and the Olmstead Training Project. We want to recognize our funders, NIDRR and RSA. On an ongoing basis, ILRU hosts various webcasts and teleconferences. So please check our calendar for upcoming ones. And last but not least, I would like to thank the ILRU webcast team, which includes Sharon Finney, Dawn Heinsohn, Marj Gordon, our fabulous realtime captioner, Marie Bryant, as well as our techie guy who pulled this together who is Rob Dickehuth. So please if you want to review information or if you want to make it available to somebody else, everything will be archived on our website and additional information will be added next week. So thank you everybody for joining us today and thank you, Steve. Steve: Okay, you're welcome. Thank you guys. Rachel: Have a great afternoon. Bye-bye.