Counseling Without Bias Presenter: Daniel W. Wong. >> LAUREL: Good afternoon, this is Laurel Richards with ILRU in Houston. And welcome to today's webcast. Today we're talking about the subject of bias and its role in our service delivery programs, and for us individually how it affects our interrelations with the people with whom we work as well as serve. Today's program is part of a new project that's in its first year. It's the rehabilitation research institute for under represented populations. It's head quartered at southern university. It is I guess a consortium really of individuals from institutions around the country and there is -- we will have several webcasts a year on the project and on findings, but as you can tell, it addresses the subject of -- I don't know -- we're calling them culturally diverse populations or underserved or underrepresented in the independent living field. This has always been a major issue of concern. We know from the needs assessments that we've been conducting over a number of years here at ILRU that outreach to underserved populations has always been in the top ten management issues identified by the executive directors of centers for independent living. We know that -- with CIL's emphasis on peer support, peer mentoring, independent living skills training and so on that the issue of checking one's self for bias is an area of concern. While those of us with disabilities have no problem recognizing bias when it's directed toward ourselves, we welcome an opportunity to learn more about how we can recognize bias in ourselves. Today's presenter in Daniel Wong. He's the -- Daniel, are you the department chair? >> DANIEL: No, I'm with the East Carolina University. >> LAUREL: East Carolina -- you're the director of the doctoral program there in rehabilitation counseling and administration at east university -- East Carolina University. Daniel, I went to school in Carolina. So, Daniel, we welcome today's presentation and opportunity to learn more about recognizing bias in ourselves, how we can control for that, just actually as a field we're eager to learn as much as we can about underserved populations and bias as whole different area of study. So we'll turn it over to you and thanks you for today's presentation. >> DANIEL: Thank you, Laurel. I want to thank everybody, especially ILRU and the staff there like Laurel and Mark for this opportunity to make this presentation. The title presented is called Counseling Without Bias. It's a little bit -- it's a tall order. I think the most appropriate kind of title for a research project like this is what we call a framework for multicultural rehabilitation counseling research. And bias, of course, is almost inherent in everyone and it tends to manifest itself. So of course we have to deal with bias in almost daily lives and so this is a very important topic with respect to the rehabilitation counseling field. It's an important topic for us to remember because we are providing a very important service for the consumers. So anyway, I like to thank everybody and I like to start with giving you some information, not as much as you may want it, but according to the latest research indicated there is a much higher incidents of work bias among minorities. That term has been defined by so many different disciplines and so we're not going to spend a lot of time on it, but if anybody has questions, I'll be happy to entertain it after the dissertation. According to the statistic 13.7 percent of African Americans, 8.2 percent of Hispanic Americans and 7.9 percent of European Americans. Now, by the year 2020 the government statistic kind of projected 30 percent of people that are coming to the labor force will be so-called minorities. Now, minority individuals with disabilities who need VR services has been so-called expanding in great numbers and VR agencies should prepare to serve this very diverse population. In addition to that, many scholars and researchers have agreed if you have a disability and you are from a minority group, or that you and your family live in poverty and that you will be poorer than others of your race, so that's just a very critical point that we have to make. In terms of research with respect to employer biases, there was a very interesting research done that was published this year in The American Economic Review, and they send out 5,000 fictitious resumes to 1300 help wanted ads in Boston and Chicago newspapers and they found a bias against very African American sounding names. So I guess that we can tell -- some of us can tell what kind of African American sounding names. And very European sounding names received 50 percent more callbacks for interviews in comparison to the African American sounding names. So I suggest if they want to conduct a similar study, they should have Hispanic and Asian sounding names and should have more ethnic last names such as Asian like Lee, Chan, and Hispanics will have names like Hernandez if they want to conduct a similar study. Now, we have rehabilitation counselor biases -- based on a lot of study that has been conducted, we found that inequitable treatment of people has been found to be a critical issue in rehabilitation. Now according to the Rehab Act of 1992, there are patterns of inequitable treatment of minorities have been documented in all major junctures of the vocational rehabilitation process as compared to European American, a large percentage of African American to the vocational rehabilitation system is denied acceptance. So some of you probably know that section 21 of the Rehab Act amendment of 1992 mandated outreach and inclusion of persons from minority ethnic groups into state, federal, vocational rehabilitation programs. So that's a significant mandate and we have that amendment that was introduced back in 1992. Now, there are numerous studies that are also conducted in the vocational rehab agency. A study that indicated the pattern of service for the African American consumers suggest that they are less likely to be accepted for VR services as compared to European Americans. Some of you probably like to use white Americans and some prefer European Americans. Now, one may argue that there are probably many, many variables contributing to so-called acceptance rates. For example, some so-called consumers that are denied service, they were labeled as not cooperative, you know, with the rehab counselor, so the term cooperative is very difficult to define and is probably based on the VR counselor's impression or quote-unquote biases. Now, another study that we looked at -- in 2004 there was a study published by some of my colleagues that published an article. They did a study to conduct a (Inaudible) to examine the acceptance rates and also they found that the ratio of 1 to .54 suggested that European American consumers were accepted for vocational rehab services (Inaudible). So if you can tell many very good studies -- they actually indicate there is a need for more studies to find out about these other cases. Now, another study is using an experimental study to examine the fact of race on clinical judgment of European American in rehabilitation counseling. And the study was conducted by using two groups of European American students and they were asked to review case material for an identical consumer with the exception of race. Now, for one group, the hypothetical consumer was reported to be European American, and for the other, an African American. In the African American condition, the consumer was judged to have less potential for education and employment, given that all case information was identical with the exception to race. The group differences was attributed to racial bias. Now, I was also involved in collecting data in the past two years and will continue to collect more data and to expand the sample and hopefully we can get a more (Inaudible) result. This article was published back in 1999. The other study also indicated systematic biases associated with specific consumer variables such as gender, age, sexual preference and disability type. Now, those studies that always focused on lots of issues that we -- that we a tribute to that individual, and so if you look at some people they prefer working with females in comparison to male or older or younger. So those studies will give us more information regarding the preferences and the biases toward specific variables. Myself and a few colleagues recently published an article, a study we have conducted the past -- actually two or three years already to examine the attribute of students in vocational rehabilitation counseling to serve people with disabilities, and we published the article in the issue of vocational rehabilitation bulletin and we found that -- in this preliminary study we found factors such as disability type were heavily involved in the process. And secondly the at tribute for (Inaudible). Such as education, age and ethnicity. Other related studies that we found for the predominantly European American female sample, preference for people with disabilities can be characterized as young, educated European American women with physical disabilities. Now, one may probably come up with some conclusions regarding this white, young, college educated European American women with physical disabilities the most preferred consumer they want to provide services. If you look at in most graduate programs in rehabilitation counseling, I believe that there is larger than 60 or 70 percent of the graduate students are so-called European female students. So of course they were preferring their own kind so to speak. So if you look at who are the people, based on this, who are the people preferred categorically, it's European Americans, so-called Latinos secondly and then African American and native American and then the last one, people preferred to work with Asian Americans. And we also found out in terms of disability type people prefer a physical -- prefer to work with a consumer with physical disabilities than a consumer with developmental disability and then the last one is a consumer with psychiatric disabilities. In terms of -- based on this study, we looked at the consequence of racial and disability biases. Counselor biases based on selected characteristics of consumer contributes (Inaudible) judgment regarding consumer potential regarding their educational and career ultimately pursue impacting the future direct and quality of life and they are both important the outcome of rehabilitation if they pursue to go through the rehabilitation process. Now, one thing that we are concerned about in these studies we conducted for the past ten or twenty years. Most of the studies only addressed the symptoms and they don't address the solutions. So in so-called absence of research and development effort to provide the necessary tools for counseling consumers, both the majority and minority to work together effectively. Because we only address the symptoms, we don't address the solutions, that's one thing that we're concerned about that we cannot work together to address the issues. That is one thing we try to address, so this funded by NIDRR project basically we are focusing on three levels of research and it comprised with seven research teams or seven research questions. What we're concerned about is whether we will be able to integrate research practices, so the first level of research is for this specific framework for multicultural rehabilitation counseling, research at the first level is the research for wide baseline information documenting inequity of outreach in vocational rehabilitation. The second level is research to identify factors contributing to counselor biases and other discriminatory behave or and the third level is research to develop empirical models to improve working relationship between counselor and the minority consumers and rehabilitation out comes. Now, in order to address these three levels of research activities, we come up with a total of seven research themes or research questions. In the level 1 baseline research, we focus on, number one, differential acceptance rates. Because in order for a consumer -- especially a consumer from a minority background to receive services to be treated fairly, the acceptance rate -- the so-called acceptance to the VR services has to be addressed. And the second one is differential service pattern for the study among successful and unsuccessful VR services recipient of varying degree of severity of disability and ethnicity background. Such as what service the vocational rehab counselor procures for his or her consumer and based on what information. So the service pattern is something that is critical to the outcome of vocational rehab. The third baseline research is counselor consumer ethnicity match. It's important to study the match on acceptance rate and differential patterns. And so we want to look at whether our article was just published -- whether a specific group preferred (Inaudible) or whether there is a pattern of discrimination so that's so-called counselor consumer ethnicity match study. Now, for level 1 that we have field research questions or research themes that we want to pursue, number one is we want to look at the differential acceptance rate of VR services among European Americans, African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans and native Americans vocational rehab applicants. So we want to look at the acceptance rates, what percentage, whether a group -- in comparison to another group, they have a high percentage rate in terms of being accepted to vocational rehab services. And the second research question, we want to look at the fact of counselor consumer match on acceptance rates of European American, African American, Asian Americans and native Americans. We want to look at who is working with who, what kind of preference do they exhibit when they work with specific populations. In our research theme or research question, number flee is we want to look at the differential service pattern among European Americans, African American, Hispanic American, Asian American and native American vocational rehab consumers. We want to see that the preferences among counselor or specific counselor or what service they provided to the consumer and what service they would most likely procure for the consumers in order for them to enhance their vocational rehabilitation outcome. And then when we finish the baseline study, we want to get into the level 2 of our research framework is to look at factors contributing to cultural sensitivity rehabilitation counseling practices and we would like to use a so-called model approach to identify factors contributing to successful cultural sensitivity rehabilitation counseling practices. Now, there are many studies lately to look at very important variables of so-called working alliance and some researchers found that in the counseling field and also in counseling psychology field that they found 70 percent of the counseling effects or the results are due to the effects of common factors. And only 8 percent due to specific (Inaudible) such as specific factors with the remaining 22 percent partially attributed to individual consumer differences. So the common factors that they found that are very important to so-called counseling effects or counseling outcomes are goal setting, empathetic listening and alliance -- therapeutic alliance. Now, those factors basically what we are looking at is how well the student training in the program -- in the graduate program and how well they have practiced this skill in terms of working with the consumers. And when we look at specific factors among all these factors, we found empathy probably is the most significant predictor of multicultural counseling effectiveness. Now, one may argue that some groups, for example, perhaps if you look at Asians, a lot of so-called -- a big percentage of Asians would prefer going to a counseling session to obtain answers instead of somebody who listens to their complaints or concerns. So perhaps we should revisit whether empathy is the most important variable in terms of multicultural counseling. So we are still in the process of looking into different factors. Another factor that's very important is the therapeutic alliance because it's related to the consumers affective relationship with the so-called therapist. We use this term because this research that was conducted within the counseling or the counseling psychology field and we can say that -- the consumer's affective relationship with the counsel or. The counselor's empathy responding to and involvement with the client, and the consumer and the counselor agreement about the goals and outcome of therapy. So as you can tell so-called alliances, how well a counselor -- how well a counselor and a consumer work together to accomplish a common goal in the vocational rehab field that we are talking about how well we have a counselor and a consumer can come up with a common goal to accomplish the successful vocational rehabilitation outcome. In our level 2 we are also looking at the discrepancy between counselor-consumer expectations for counseling and rehabilitation, compromising working alliance, consumers (Inaudible) and outcome. Now, in most cases that we look at, we base it on many peer studies and talking to consumers and as we are all aware that a lot of consumer complaints of the rehab counselor didn't know what they want and what they can accomplish. In most cases what they like to do or want to accomplish or objective they set out to do in most cases they were denied by their vocational rehab counselor. So what we want to see or to investigate is to look at the expectation between a vocational rehab counselor and the consumers. So the working alliance is one very critical step in our research projects. And also if we can address this issue effectively, then we can minimize cultural biases in the vocational rehab counselor and consumer working relationships. In our level 2 research, we also want to look at the racial stereotypes and clinical judgment because many studies indicate that racial bias of vocational rehab counselor toward African American consumers and it's also well documented and published in many different journals and so in that light we'd like to see whether this kind of practice -- racial bias from VR counselor also applies to other so-called minority groups. So we like to incorporate variable identified in a clinical study. How information about ethnicity or vocational rehabilitation surfaced with other variables to (Inaudible) judgment with vocational rehabilitation counselor from the majority background. So it's important for us to also look at how other groups -- so-called minority groups, they are perhaps affected by these biases. So based on our study that was just recently published, we concluded understanding of attitude information will probably allow us to develop effective intervention strategies to help modify counselor in training, talking about the students in the graduate programs, as well as practicing counselor's attitudes towards people with disabilities with different ethnicity backgrounds. Now, in our research theme for research question No. 4, we want to look at the counselor consumer match on expectations about rehabilitation, working alliance agreement and disagreement on rehabilitation goals and services and consumers (Inaudible). As I just mentioned, based on our studies and other people's studies, the way that so-called good case outcome really depends on whether there is a good match between the vocational rehab counselor and the consumer, the working alliance. And also the expectations -- if a vocational rehabilitation counselor expects something or something too high from the consumers or the expectation is too low and vice versa and the consumer also expects very high from the rehab process, then the counselor is not able to provide the kind of service that the consumer would like to receive, then we will probably -- most likely will not have a good outcome in terms of the vocational rehab process. In our level 2 research, we also like to expand our colleagues' study to look at racial biases among practicing vocational rehab counselor and to expand the level of ethnicity attributes to include Hispanics, Asian American and native Americans. So we like to see whether if the case dissemination -- the so-called true experiment that our colleagues conducted only used European Americans or white American in comparison to African American. We can also expand the study to Hispanic, Asian American and native Americans. And also in addition to that, we will use a computer-based case in vocational management toward biases in different consumers with various racial backgrounds, in eligibility determination. Now, this computer simulation will assist us to better understand decision-making factors influencing differential acceptance rate and differential services that cannot be (Inaudible) date A. so the thing we want to do is use the technique of computer case simulation to look at whether counselor in training or practicing counselor, they have in a case simulation setting, they have any biases or specific preference to work any group and base it on their own ethnicity. So this is something we can use at vocational management simulations to accomplish this. In our research -- question No. 6 or research theme No. 6, we want to study factors influencing vocational rehab counselor attitudes toward minorities in the initial interview and the subsequent rehabilitation counseling and how these factors can be used to train vocational rehabilitation counselor to heighten their awareness of the cultural biases and to train consumer from minority backgrounds to modify counselor behavior. The important thing of this study is because based on previous studies, the case outcomes of vocational rehabilitation case outcome -- a very big percentage of so-called -- the recommendation of the vocational rehabilitation counselor was based on the first interview, the initial interviews. So somehow the initial interview occupied the decision-making -- a very big percentage of the decision-making with respect to how vocational rehab counselor -- whether they want to procure more services or they want to -- for example -- send the consumer to college, to purchase equipment, or to so-called assist the consumer more in terms of accomplishing the vocational rehabilitation outcome. So if you look at the initial interview to find out whether that is something that we can examine whether bias -- so-called bias in rehab counselors affected the initial interview and also eventually the vocational rehabilitation out come is a very important step that we have to take in this research. So that's research question No. 6 and to kind of wrap up our so-called level 2 research. The level 3 research is the last level in our framework for multicultural rehabilitation counseling research. We kind of basically -- evidence based on multicultural rehabilitation counseling process and we have developed a model for so-called intervention and training. So the information that we obtain and the research result we obtained, which were conducted in level 1 and level 2, will form the foundation for the development of a cultural sensitivity rehabilitation counseling practice model to enhance the rehabilitation outcomes by using empirical supported constructs. So we'll use the result and the outcome based on our level 1 and level 2 research activities to come up with a model to hopefully be implemented with counsel ores in training or vocational rehab counselor to assist them to hopefully deal with their own biases toward consumers, especially consumers from diverse backgrounds. And so anyway, research conducted in level 1 and level 2 will form the foundation to look at how we can provide training to counselors in training and also vocational rehab counselor in practice. The last level of this framework for multicultural, is to basically develop a training package and based on of course the review of multicultural counseling, we have counseling literature, research and also research generated from level 1 and level 2 of our framework for multicultural rehabilitation counseling research and then we will also conduct an experimental research study with a group of vocational rehab counselors to determine whether this so-called effectiveness of this training package and then after that -- after we do the trainings, then we will try to see whether it's effective and then eventually if it's effective, we will find out whether this training package is able to modify the vocational rehab counselor's multicultural counseling behavior, whether this package can improve so-called working alliance between the vocational rehab counselor and the consumers, and whether this training package will improve consumer satisfaction and eventually and most importantly, to improve the rehabilitation outcome. So anyway, it's a comprehensive kind of approach to hopefully deal with these issues that have been around and probably (Inaudible) especially from consumers with diverse backgrounds to fully utilize the vocational rehab services and to fully utilize their abilities and to utilize the ability to be able to accomplish their personal goals and be able to integrate into society and also it is our responsibility in the field to be able to identify problems, to be able to provide solutions and hopefully to provide, you know, vocational rehab counselor, vocational rehab professional -- will be able to provide equitable services to all consumers. So anyway, that's our research in a nutshell and as I said at the very beginning, I want to thank the people in Houston and all the people that help us to put together this presentation and to Laurel, Mark and Dr. Searle, Marie and Dawn. So if I missed anybody, please forgive me. >> LAUREL: Thank you, Daniel. Would you entertain some questions? >> DANIEL: Of course, yes. Thank you. >> LAUREL: for those of you who are interested in submitting questions on the web page -- well, actually, in the RealPlayer box where just below where the transcribing is rolling along, there is a button you can click down there or a hot link that says if you have a question click here and it will bring up your software program that's for your E-mail. And you can just -- it's preaddressed to us. So you can just type in your question and hit the send button and it will come to us. And then we'll field them that way. Dawn, you'll let us know when you receive some. >> DAWN: Actually, I have one small question and one very large question. >> DANIEL: on, my God. Was I clear? Because I'm losing my voice. >> DAWN: Well, I'll read you the small one first. And I think you've already answered this. Do you have the statistics for American Indians with disabilities? >> DANIEL: Yes and no, and the reason I say that is because a lot of information -- actually a big percentage of the information regarding the statistic among American Indians is very difficult to obtain because American Indians on the reservations and we really have a very difficult time to obtain accurate information and I think it has been an issue that we are very concerned about and as many of you are aware, the disability issues within the reservation, in most cases, to us is -- number one the information is difficult to obtain, and number two is probably we -- you know, sometimes we may not get the full cooperation to get -- if we want to conduct any study, it may not be -- we may not obtain the full cooperation or we may not be able to get accurate information and that's one thing that I think we need to really work on and it's a shame that the data really are not readily available to us. >> LAUREL: Daniel, am I correct that one of the collaborators on this NIDRR project is a specialist in that area? >> DANIEL: Yes. I think the gentleman -- I forgot his name, if you can recall -- I think he's from New Mexico. >> LAUREL: That sounds right. Perhaps we'll have some more data on upcoming webcasts. >> DANIEL: Also, if I'm wrong, correct me, I also think that different tribes -- they may not share the information. But the reservations in New Mexico may not share the information or the statistical data with other reservations in Arizona or in Utah or even in North Carolina. So it's very difficult to obtain any accurate data and it's one thing that I think we should really pursue. As I said, in order to provide accurate information and able to address the issue of providing equitable services. >> LAUREL: Dawn, did you have a longer question? >> DAWN: Yeah, this one is like four questions long, but it's one big question. So it's going to take a minute. Do you think that perhaps the evidence of bias in acceptance rather may be a function of the reticence on the part of potential VR to make complaint of service denial based on unlawful racial discrimination or is it a lack of awareness of civil rights protections? What impact then for someone both a racial minority and a person with a disability? What is the likelihood that they are fully aware of their rights under the various civil rights laws, the ADA, and the administrative appeals process for service denial. Is that the root for more inclusion, to require a full instruction on rights within state VR systems with regards to denial of general services or particular services and better awareness training on individual's civil rights. >> LAUREL: Jeepers. That's a great question. >> DANIEL: That's a great question. Actually it requires some attention and actually I discussed with my colleagues -- and I forgot to mention that our research team that there was me and a consortium working with Laurel and various doctors, our research team here, we have three people. I just want to inject this and before I answer this question. Our research team here includes Dr. (Inaudible) from Wisconsin. And also Lucy Wong. And I have both academic and (Inaudible) background to discuss this kind of issue. Now, the acceptance rate is a very interesting question and important question in terms of analyzing the data. We use quite often in other studies use the data that we analyzed, the so-called acceptance and the service provider to consumers who are utilizing the VR services. One thing that the data did not provide us is whether the consumers who are receiving service -- the information regarding -- for example, very simply put, whether they have acquired service from independent living centers. Now, the reason I said that is if a consumer goes to an independent center and is getting all the information, for example, the person asks this long question, the consumer goes to the independent center to ask a question, to acquire information regarding vocational rehab services, regarding the civil rights issue, regarding how best the system can serve him or her, I believe that the chances of so-called getting a better services from vocational rehabilitation services -- personally, I believe it's much better. >> LAUREL: Really? >> DANIEL: or greater or higher. So the acceptance rate that we analyze and look at, sometimes we don't have the data to further analyze whether -- like for example, an independent center, an advocacy group, whether they play any role to contribute to success rates and whether consumer wants to receive services from vocational rehab whether they have the knowledge of civil rights issues, whether -- actually just the rights issue, whether they have the right to receive services, or that they have the right to go to appeal for the case if they are denied services. So sometimes the data that we are analyzing -- many people have analyzed it -- does not provide us the information to look at other pour contributing factors. Also in addition to the civil rights issues, whether the consumer understands the rehabilitation act and the rehabilitation act amendments, what kind of role those amendments can enhance the request for services or giving them the right to -- that can benefit those through the amendments. So I think if we can continue the study and are able to look into that, I believe to (Inaudible) an advocacy group can play a significant role in order to provide information to the consumers who are requesting vocational rehab services. I think it's critical to the outcome of vocational rehab services. >> LAUREL: That's very interesting and would make a terrific research project. >> DANIEL: Yeah, I believe that. >> LAUREL: of those who have received kind of an orientation to voc rehab services from a disability type organization like CIL's and those who haven't, if that would make a difference in the -- not just the satisfaction with the services, but as you say, the bottom line, which is the employment -- obtaining employment satisfactory. >> DANIEL: I believe that it's a major variable contributor to the outcome and that's one thing that is kind of -- it bothers me that that factor has not really been studied. >> LAUREL: Yes. >> DANIEL: I don't know whether I answered the question because it was along question from the gentleman or lady. Did I answer the question, Marie? >> LAUREL:Dawn. >> DANIEL: Dawn, did I answer the question? >> LAUREL: You want to go over it one more time? >> DAWN: You want me to read the whole thing? >> DANIEL: Please do because I want to make sure I answer the question. >> DAWN: Do you think that perhaps the evidence of bias in acceptance maybe a function of the reticence of potential VR to make complaints of service denial based on unlawful discrimination or is it a lack of awareness of civil rights protection? What impacts then are for someone with both a racial minority and a person with a disability? What is the likelihood that they are fully aware of their rights under the various civil rights laws, the ADA and the administrative appeals process for service denial. Is that the root for more inclusion to require a full instruction on rights within state VR systems with regards to denial of general services or particular services and better awareness training on individuals' civil rights? >> DANIEL: Yeah, I think we probably answered about 30 percent of the question. I think the first one -- the first part I believe is probably both parties -- if that's the case, that acceptance rates was determined by race and by the lack of knowledge that I think both parties should be held responsible, and I believe that of course sensitivity training and understanding ADA or rehab amendments is critical for the consumers, and also the rehab counselor to work together to accomplish the common goal which is a positive for the vocational rehab outcome which is employment or integrated in the community. And I think sensitivity training for the counselor and any training regarding providing services based on the rights and the benefits that should be provided to people who are qualified for vocational rehab services -- for the consumer should be addressed and be fully informed and that's the reason I mentioned the CIL and other consumer organizations should play key roles in terms of educating the consumer of their rights and also educating the vocational rehab counselor of their responsibilities as well. >> LAUREL: Sure. Good. Dawn, do you have another -- I've got a couple if you're still waiting for some? >> DAWN: No, I'm still waiting. >> LAUREL: Daniel, I have a couple related to some of your statements on the different levels. And one was you had discussed the means of data collecting from the consumer regarding their perspective of the working relationship with a rehab counselor. Is that correct? Is that an instrument -- I assume is that a survey instrument or how is that data collected? >> DANIEL: Let me see the level that you are talking about. I'm looking at which research question -- >> LAUREL: I don't think it was level 2. I think it was level 1. >> DANIEL: in terms of -- because the first one, the acceptance rate and the second one is match on -- ethnicity match and the third was service patterns and that's the three different questions -- three different research questions on level 1. >> LAUREL: I think it was level 2 then. >> DANIEL: I'm trying to figure out which one is the target. Then we're talking about -- are you talking about the working alliance? >> LAUREL: Yes. >> DANIEL: or expectations? >> LAUREL: Yes, the expectations. >> DANIEL: Actually, we would do an empirical study in terms of either using existing scales or we will develop a scale based on some existing scale because counseling expectation -- this topic has been studied in different counseling fields, not just vocational rehab counseling. A counseling expectation study was conducted in many different fields and so there are quite a few existing studies, but many different scales have been widely used to look at this expectation between the counselor and the consumers. >> LAUREL: So when you all get to this part of the study, you'll probably have to modify and adapt? >> DANIEL: Probably have to modify -- actually, we did some counseling (Inaudible) to compare Koreans or so-called Europeans or white Americans and we found that are significant differences as I mentioned in the presentation, Asians like you think an Asian is like a universal term for the Asian which includes Koreans and Chinese and Japanese. The expectations -- base order many studies, the expectations of the first generation in this country is totally different from the people that were born and grew up here. Because I have mentioned that they go to see a counselor because they expect the counselor to tell them what to do. They want a quick solution, they want a quick answer. So if you use the laws of the western method of providing counseling like (Inaudible), empathy, sometimes they say, oh, gee, my counselor is so wishy washy. Because we grew up with the notion of going to see an authority figure to get an answer. So it's very interesting in terms of the expectations. >> LAUREL: When you conducted that study for the folks -- the Korean folks who were indigenous to America and were accustomed to our ways or that form of counseling, were the responses of the consumers regarding expectation -- were you all satisfied with how affective you were in capturing their feelings? >> DANIEL: I would say so. Sometimes I think force a study like this can kind of verify what we believe, but it's kind of funny that we always say we need to continue the study to view better theory or framework to do more study. That's one thing that researchers are always being accused of, the study for another study. But yes, that's a very interesting kind of finding that cultural difference has significant impact on so-called expectations. So we also -- that's the one reason we strongly believe the expectation between the consumer or specifically the consumer from a diverse culture and the vocational rehab counselor will play a significant role with respect to the vocational rehabilitation outcome because I think if you talk to the people, of course we have people that complain about every thing, a very big percentage of the consumers, they drop out from vocational rehab services or they have been denied by VR services. In most cases, it's because the consumer has a totally different expectation from the vocational rehab counselor. >> LAUREL: Goodness. >> DANIEL: and as I said, personally I believe this idea of so-called looking at people with disabilities with the prejudicial kind of thought that they cannot accomplish what they want to accomplish or they set the goal too high so the vocational rehab counselor expects they will settle for less. That will probably hinder the outcome. And also the consumer needs to understand the vocational rehab system in order for them to get the services they deserve. >> LAUREL: Yes. The reason I'm asking that is that, you know, our primary constituencies -- or at least one of our major constituencies here at ILRU are independent living centers. And one interesting area that we hear just always have heard and continue to hear is measuring consumer satisfaction -- a lot of centers are concerned and want to obtain good data about that but aren't particularly thrilled with the instruments or the measurement tools they are using. And I think are on the lookout for some sort of other ways to obtain information on how successful was the encounter between the peer supporter or the consumer, which is rather like in a way the encounters between the rehab counselor and the consumers in VR. >> DANIEL: I think it's very important kind of study to look at -- basically we're still talking about two major things, the so-called working alliance and expectations. And I think between so-called service provider and the recipient of the services and somehow if they understand each other's -- each other's situation and understand each other's position and be able to maximize the efforts and maximize their strengths, I think that's what we are looking at the alliance and also the expectations which is eventually the better the alliance, the more the conclusion of expectations and the better the outcome for VR services. >> LAUREL: I'm going to ask a similar question with regard to the tools that will be used to obtain -- that would help let's say the consumer recognize bias in himself or herself and the counselor recognizing it in himself or herself. Are these existing instruments? >> DANIEL: Some of them are. Some of them we have to modify. Actually when we put together this framework, we have some instruments in mind that we can use, but we still have to modify some of the instruments and I think that what we tried to do is see whether there are some instruments that have very good validity that we can borrow and use and, if not, then perhaps we have to establish or develop other instruments that we can do some tests to develop data and be able to use it. >> LAUREL: So you all are -- will that part of the study occur like in year 2 or year 3? >> DANIEL: That part of the study we'll try to start in year 2, and then this year what we have done and continue to do is to really look into -- as I mentioned the (Inaudible) data -- I think I mentioned also the deficit of 9-1-1 data and we analyzed that and what else is lacking there and of course we can use lots of those results from analyzing the 9-1-1 data. We can have lots of assumptions and conclusions, but what we have to do is look at what other possible variables or other areas that we may be missing and then we can move into year 2 to start doing some field work to collect some data based on what we set out to do. >> LAUREL: Yes. Kind of a hole plugging? >> DANIEL: Yes, I think it's a very interesting study as I mentioned. Many studies -- for perhaps the past ten years always talks about the symptoms and what we have to do is really address the issue and hopefully to provide some kind of solution and, for example, the working alliance or the expectation are the critical issues and can we provide some kind of conflict resolution model to pull the two sides more closer than what we found out is a major problem. You know, how to modify the behavior, how to pull them together to work to a common goal. So maybe a model of conflict resolution and not just complaining or fighting with each other. >> LAUREL: It sounds like though as you all collect the findings from these different activities then you're going on to convert or develop a training program based on ways to address these -- they're not deficiencies, they're just different perspectives. >> DANIEL: Right. That's what we plan to do and hopefully by the end of the fourth year we will come up with a training module, you know, to do some field work to see whether it can alleviate some of the issues that have been around, they have been around and like a thorn in the system. >> LAUREL: Yes, that's right. And, you know, even though voc rehab services and independent living service delivery are different just in purposes and mission, the training should be adaptable and usable in each field. It's just the fundamentals of communication between the counselor and the consumer. >> DANIEL: Yeah, I agree with you. I think that's probably one thing that is very critical and important to many fields and it's just communication and understanding each other and understanding each other's position and what kind of rights you have and what kind of rights the other person has. >> LAUREL: and this notion of working alliance and expectation as the key areas, that's terrific. That resonates pretty well. >> DANIEL: Yeah, I think that's a very important point. >> LAUREL: Dawn, do we have others? >> DAWN: Yes, I work with a section 121 program for American Indians with disabilities. As a part of our program is training the nonnative population of VR counselors in cultural diversity to assist them with understanding the native culture. Do you think this truly helps to eliminate bias towards native American applicants? >> DANIEL: Oh, of course, and I think that's very important training, and I think they should do more, and I believe that those are very important projects that the native Americans -- they have to engage in, because I think there is a lot of myths and misunderstanding toward not just native Americans, but to other so-called minority cultures and any kind of sensitivity training to other groups, not just to European Americans or white Americans or black Americans, just any group sensitivity training to provide training to Asians or vice versa, they are all important -- or Hispanic Americans -- any kind of training among groups and not just one group and I think it's important. It's just to build a bridge among groups living in this very, very diverse society and very diverse culture. I have no other words to express how important the training or sensitivity training among groups can enhance the outcome of any kind of services. >> LAUREL: Yeah, agreed there. Dawn? >> DAWN: No. >> LAUREL: We're okay? Daniel, we've really responded to some very important questions following your presentation. And we're sort of running toward tend of our allotted time. Is there other material or sayings that you would like to complete? >> DANIEL: You know, as I said before, thank you guys and any other question, if any audience or listeners, if they have any questions, I'd be happy -- our team of researchers would be more than happy to answer. And I am also looking forward to other kind of collaborative efforts to pursue research that will really enhance the vocational rehab services, to allow people to work together to accomplish the objectives in a very diverse society and I think in our field, in the vocational rehab counseling field is vitally critical for us to address those issues in terms of working with many different ethnic groups and to -- especially to address the issues that consumers with disabilities from other groups or just any other group to be able to accomplish their objective and to utilize their services that are provided to them or supposed to provide to them. They have the right to obtain the services and be able to be integrated and to be a productive citizen in society. And I look forward to any questions and I'm sure that if I can answer it or my team or other people in our research project would be more than happy to answer any questions or to address any issue or questions or any concern that anybody might have. And as I said, the important thing is to provide equitable service to the consumers and especially consumers from other groups. >> LAUREL: and thank you for that offer of the questions. What we will do is we'll set up a discussion forum and it will -- we'll leave it up for about four weeks where -- if folks have questions they'd like to submit to do that, to submit it to ILRU. Dawn, to ILRU.org? What is our address for questions? >> DAWN: Yeah, they can send it to that one. It will come to me. >> LAUREL: So it will be ILRU@ilru.org? >> DAWN: Yes, ma'am. >> LAUREL: When you receive that they'll be posted on the discussion forum and then we'll get them to Daniel so he or his team can respond to that. So, Daniel, we'll leave that up for about four weeks if we have some, and with others, sometimes we get questions and that will be fine. I also want to let folks know that we're going to have this presentation archived so that it will be -- both the audio streaming and the captioning portion of it, the transcript, will be available now in perpetuity that has this presentation information on it and there will be two new links added and one link will be to the archive and you click on that and it will take it to where you can either hear the audio or read the transcript and then there will be another link that will take it to the discussion forum. And you can visit there. So if you're interested just return to this page and if you can't remember that, just click on webcasts at our home page and it will get you there. Daniel, as you all continue with your research, I hope that in a couple of years, if not before, you can return and let us know about your instruments for obtaining how one can check for bias in one's self, whether you're the consumer or the service provider. >> DANIEL: Okay. That's good, and we'll be happy to come here again. >> LAUREL: That would be just great. >> DANIEL: Thank you everybody. >> LAUREL: Well, let me say also that before we close, we'd love to have your feedback in the evaluation instrument that we have there on the web page. It's a real quick and dirty evaluation questionnaire. It won't take terribly long and we would welcome any kind of comments that you have to provide. Also, again, the project that is sponsoring this webcast is the rehabilitation research institute on underrepresented populations. It's operated by southern university and is a consortium of folks working around the country and just first rate. That is a project of the national institute of disability and rehabilitation research, NIDRR. We thank them for their support for these kinds of initiatives. Before closing I want to thank the folks who made this webcast possible in terms of mechanics, one is John Searle and Marie Bryant. John is responsible for somehow converting the audio from this telephone line into this audio streaming that you're hearing over your computer, and Marie Bryant is the realtime captioner who is also first rate, and on our team at ILRU, thanks to Dawn Heinsohn for asking the questions today, dawn. Mark Richards who set up this webcast, Marj Gordon and Sharon Finney and Rachel Kosoy, thanks to all of you for the support on that end of the team. And Daniel, thank you for doing the presentation. And for all of us at ILRU, good afternoon. >> DANIEL: Thank you. Bye.