Public Transportation for People with Disabilities: Legal and Implementation Updates. Presenter: Michael A. Winter. >> LEX: Welcome to the webcast today provided to you by the Disability Law Resource Project at ILRU and my name is Lex Frieden. I'll be hosting today the webcast. We have Rachel Kosoy on another line and Rachel will be managing the questions for us and thanks to Rob Dickehuth for producing the show today. Our guest is Michael Winter and Michael will take questions from you all as you have them. You may -- on the bottom of your RealOne Player screen click "submit question" at any time you want to log on and submit a question, and you may also simply E-mail a question to webcast@ilru.org. If anyone has technical difficulties today, please make note of the ILRU number at (713)520-0232. The format for today will be a mix of questions and interview with Michael Winter. We are actually hosting this webcast from the headquarters of the Houston Metropolitan Transit Authority and the offices of MetroLift where we have a very well established transit program for people with disabilities in Houston, and I want to thank Michael Winter for coming down from Washington to Houston to take part in a conference that MTA helped us organize yesterday, and I want to thank Michael for all the great work he's done recently, but also historically to promote accessible transportation for people with disabilities. Michael Winter, if you're not aware of his background, ran an independent living center, actually two of them, before he was elected to the board of a metropolitan transit agency and became a professional in the field of transportation for people with disabilities and he has worked in a number of capacities in Washington in the U.S. Department of Transportation, helping to promote accessible transportation for people with disabilities. Michael has been responsible for liaison with the Congress between his department for policy development. He's been responsible for disbursing and managing highway funds around the country and he is currently the director of the Office of Civil Rights in the Federal Transit Administration. Michael, welcome to the webcast today. >> MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Lex. It's an honor to be here with you and to be at the METRO transit agency in Houston. >> LEX: Michael, yesterday we had a conference for about three hours. We had about 70 people. A number of people there raised questions. You travel all over the country. You get questions from people about accessible transportation. What would you say are the big issues that are out there today for transit agencies and for people with disabilities who are consumers of transit services? >> MICHAEL: Well, the questions usually fall into two categories, one is dealing with fixed route and the other one is dealing with paratransit. With the fixed route, it's just basic questions in terms very, you know, people calling out bus stops, elevators working, what happens when escalators aren't working, you know, what's the general accessibility that a transit agency has to provide on a fixed route. On the paratransit, one of the big issues that comes into play which is the first question is how do transit agencies determine the demand or the need for service, and the official term for that is capacity constraint and we've been working a lot with the transit agencies over the years on how to deal with that because that's the first step in terms of providing adequate paratransit to make sure you forecast the proper needs and you can budget the resources and staff to meet that need. Getting down to more particulars, the issue of scheduling rides, you know, how far in advance do you have to schedule a ride. Basically the regs say that you need to schedule -- you have to schedule a ride 24 hours in advance so the person has a right to call up 24 hours in advance. The other issue is how do you count a denial or how do you count a no show. So she's are kind of the issues that are at the forefront. On fixed route, when does a wheelchair need to be secured? What about the oversized vehicles, what about service animals? Are they allowed on public transportation? So these are kind of general questions that we get and one thing that I have tried to do since I have been in my position is try to work with both the transit community and the disability community to make sure that we're working together and having dialogues on the issues because so often in the past for political as well as philosophical reasons the transit agencies have been in one corner doing their thing and the disabled community has been in the other corner doing their thing; and my feeling being a person with a disability, and also being a transit official, is to try to, as much as possible, merge those two communities together and trying to come up with some common solutions. The other big issue obviously is the funding issue, and as you know, the Congress has been very generous in expanding the funding for transportation base over the last six years and that's really improved the accessibility because the ADA is a civil rights law. It's not a program. So it's not funded and the implementation -- a large part of the implementation really depends on the overall funding for transit. >> LEX: Well, Michael, actually you haven't answered all the questions that you raised and we'll get to I think all or most of those questions, but at the bottom of it lies the issue that you just raised, and that is the history of access by people with disabilities to transportation. Years and years ago, before there was an ADA, people with disabilities insisted that they had a right to ride transportation and ADAPT grew out of that whole culture, that whole era of protest because public dollars were being used to provide public transportation, and yet all of the public wasn't able or allowed to ride the vehicles, mainly because they weren't accessible to people with disabilities, but there were, from time to time, demonstrations of accessible transportation, vehicles that were adapted and, in fact, a few communities actually provided considerable accessible public transportation before the ADA. Many communities, however, started alternative systems. In some communities the alternative systems were voluntary in nature and in fact run by voluntary agencies, and again in a few communities, public Transit Authorities felt the need to provide alternatives and they started what we now refer to as paratransit systems. Now, ADA requires all public transportation to be accessible to people with mobility impairments. That then is a given and the first question from me I guess, are all the public transportation systems in America wheelchair accessible today? >> MICHAEL: Well, if you look at the statistics since the ADA, I think we have some very positive results. 90 percent of the public buses are accessible in the United States, and the figure was somewhere between 10 and 20 percent before the ADA. When the ADA was passed, there was a provision that the -- that a certain number of key stations be made accessible. The disabled community and transit community together identified the key stations. 670 of those were identified. We're at about 94 percent of those are accessible or elements of the station are. >> LEX: Key stations -- by that you mean stations on rail lines and subway lines, and so on? >> MICHAEL: Right. That's been a significant improvement. The other factor that comes into play, since the ADA, 30 new stations or 30 new systems have been built and all of those are accessible not only for people in wheelchairs, but for the deaf and blind community and low vision and hearing impaired community. So the issue of accessibility has come a long way in the United States where it's not viewed as something that's a separate system. And it's very interesting that you bring up the history, and, you know, I've been a student of yours for a long time. So I remember when you were -- when you were first with the NCD and you were talking about accessible transportation and I had just started working at CIL and I remembered the big debate back then was do you make a public main line system accessible or do you make pair transa transit systems and basically the disabled community wanted main line accessibility and I do have to disclose here that I was involved in many of those bus demonstrations trying to bring about accessible buses. But what we have with the ADA was an interesting phenomena. We got kind of both. The transit community had argued for years that people would not use the main line systems and we needed paratransit, and that was the most effective way, cost effective way, to bring about accessibility. And of course the disabled community was saying, well, you know, the real issue is making the buses and the rail lines and the commuter lines accessible. So we ended up with both and it's created a very interesting phenomenon in this country where we're definitely moving ahead on accessibility, not only in terms of the structural issues, but in terms of the operational issues by calling out stops and making sure that other types of disabilities besides people in wheelchairs are accommodated; but we've also created a paratransit system and the paratransit system was based on if you could not use main line accessibility, that you were eligible for ADA transportation. Now, what's happened over the years is that -- through one mechanism or another -- and part of this is grandfathering and grandmothering people in, is that paratransit has grown beyond what was originally anticipated. I was very impressed. We just did a tour of Houston METRO and the systems that they've used to manage paratransit not only from their eligibility perspective of really looking at the functional level of a person in order to determine whether they really need paratransit, whether it's based on a conditional eligibility or trip by trip -- or no they are scenario -- but also the technology that has come into play in terms of the automatic vehicle location systems, the GPS, global positioning systems, and the matching that up with the dispatching. I think it's going to bring a great improvement about trying to create systems that are more efficient and meet the demand. So I think we're at an interesting point in our history because the ADAPT movement and the disability rights movement basically fought for accessible transit, but I think there is still a reliance in this country on paratransit and part of that reliance was brought about by the public transit community creating mass paratransit systems instead of creating -- instead of investing in the accessible transit. So we're at the point where we have to figure out how to do a balancing act. >> LEX: Well, actually, in my experience, if you ended the paratransit program, you would create several problems. I mean, people with disabilities who couldn't get to the main line systems would be out of luck. Furthermore, those who could get and may not be riding main line systems now would load up on the main line systems and there wouldn't be the capacity to carry them there because of limited seating. And I mean that -- I think now it appears to me that we have established a need for both of those systems. Have we not? >> MICHAEL: Absolutely. And I think the key to all of this, whether you're in -- or Chicago or New York or the rural areas -- we must not forget the rural areas -- is working with the disabled community in figuring out how to use systems. We have the ability to be very innovative and one thing we could look at is feeder systems in the public to main line accessibility. A lot of people take paratransit because they can't go three blocks into a feeder system. You know, that could take them to accessible public transportation. One of the issues that we discussed yesterday was, you know, you can have transit that's accessible, but the sidewalks aren't accessible or the public right of way is not accessible. You can't use that transit. So Houston, along with Austin, Texas, and cities like Utah have done a great job of coordinating with their cities in terms of working with the Public Works Department and the transit community and the disabled community and working together to see what kind of resources can be used to make the sidewalks accessible and the tub right of ways accessible. And I think the other thing that's very important in all of this is educating -- not only the transit community, but the disabled community about what are some of the options, you know, and looking at different ways and techniques. Travel training is one of the big areas that I support and not enough investment is put into that. So I think that you are absolutely right, we have two systems. We have two ways, and I think the broader question that we bring into play is the issue of mobility. What we're trying to create is a society where everybody is mobile. Where everybody has the ability and, I believe, right to go to doctor's appoints, to go to school, the right to visit a friend. And as my big boss says, Norman Mineta, who was one of the authors of the transportation bill when it was in Congress, says that he believes that transportation is a civil right and I hold those beliefs, too. And I think that we are in a -- America is one of the most creative societies on earth, and I think the disability community certainly has led the way, not only for disabled people, but for nondisabled people, too, in terms of the kind of technology we've created, the kind of forcing people to think outside the box in terms of trying to accommodate not just disabled people, but society in general as far as transportation goes. >> LEX: Michael, the real -- do you think the transit companies in the United States now, public transit agencies, are meeting the need? I mean, the regulations require them to do so, but in fact, are they? Do you in your capacity get a lot of complaints from people whose needs are not being met? >> MICHAEL: I think that in general the situation of transit agencies has improved tremendously. I think that, you know, before there was a lot of resistance as to saying that the ADA really didn't exist or that there wasn't a need to provide accessible transportation, and I think we're past that now. And I think most of the transit agencies are putting forth a very positive effort to make systems accessible and to make paratransit systems work. There are a few places where they, for one reason or another they don't get it, and I'm certainly involved in trying to educate them and doing what I have to do to try and get them to comply with the laws. My staff and I work very hard on identifying areas very quickly. We have a philosophy in my office that, you know, we're not out to get people or catch people. We're out to try to get people to do the right thing at the very beginning so we try to, as much as possible, nip that kind of stuff in the bud. >> LEX: Have you actually had to take punitive action? >> MICHAEL: Yes. We've been working with the Department of Justice. We have regular meetings where we have intervened in a number of cities after we've done our compliance reviews and said that, you know, enough -- enough of the technical assistance and, you know, you need to start complying with the law. And we have a very positive relationship with the Department of Justice. We just sat down with them about three weeks ago and we've identified a number of places which I'm not at liberty to discuss at the moment, but we take this very seriously and secretary Mineta takes this very seriously and my boss takes this very seriously. We will do everything we can to try to get transit the funding they need to provide transportation for people. The ADA is a civil right and they have to comply with these laws and if they don't, then we'll take the necessary action. Most of them, when we come in or when we talk to them -- I've been in this business for over 11 years in Washington, and most of them it takes a couple of phone calls to get them to start going in the right direction. If they don't want to go in the right direction, then we have ways of dealing with that, too. The other thing -- the thing that I'm very satisfied with is the disabled community. You know, ten or fifteen years ago I remember when Lex and I and a few other people would be the only ones in the room talking about accessible transportation. Now you have a whole network of disabled activists and they are concerned about accessible transportation and transportation in general, you know, and that makes my job a lot easier. This last couple of years, we've had regional dialogues around the country. We had kind of a mini regional dialogue yesterday where disabled people and transit people get together and in a lot of cases these people have never sat down in a room with each other and talked to each other in a civil manner. Most of them have been on either one side or the other side of a lawsuit or been in civil disobedience situations. And part of my goal, since I was the head of a disability rights organization in Berkeley, and I was also on the transit board at the same time, and so I -- sometimes I'd wake up in the morning and wonder if I was going to sue myself. So with that perspective, I really think that dialogue is very important. Now, I'm not saying that dialogue is going to solve everything. You know, I'm not that naive, but I think that it's a first step. I mean, people talking and communicating with each other, and we've had amazing results around the country with people getting together and talking to each other and getting to know each other and trying to solve the issues. >> LEX: Michael, you raised a question though about financing, and you said that you made every effort to get money from the transit agency -- from the Department of Transportation and from the Congress before that obviously to get that money to the communities that needed it for transportation, but you don't have enough money. I mean, the reality is if you had enough money, there would be transit accessible to people with disabilities in rural areas where it's not now. There would be transit accessible to people with disabilities in the suburbs where it's not now. I mean, and furthermore, my question is I guess what about where we do have good transit for people with disabilities, isn't that always subject to economic changes and priorities? >> MICHAEL: Well, this is a, you know, an interesting question. Because I've been to Japan a lot, working with Japan for the last 20 years, and 95 percent of people in Japan use public transportation at least twice a week. Now, in America, only 5 percent of Americans use public transportation at least twice a week. So we've got -- not only in terms of the way we think about public transportation is a lot different, but the overall goal, as you said, is to try to increase funding for transit and try to increase mobility for people and I think that there needs to be a bigger investment in public transportation in this country, you know, and bigger investment in Amtrak and as you said, you know, the ADA only says that where you provide public transportation it has to be accessible. It doesn't say anything about creating public transportation or that people have a right to public transportation in a community. So there is a big difference and in rural communities, especially, which I'm very sensitive to because I chaired a task force on transportation in rural communities for a year. 40 percent of rural communities have no transportation, either public or private. So we need to develop a strategy in this country of just like we did with the major highway systems. When we built the major highway systems in 1950's, there was an effort to link America up and now I think we need another -- another effort like that to make sure that there is mobility in every part of this country and public transportation, I think, has definitely changed its image in this country. Who would have thought that Houston would have a light rail system ten years ago? Or Dallas would have a light rail system, but both of those systems -- both of those systems, the ridership is just amazing. They've surpassed any of the estimates that were given in order to justify that funding. So I think you've hit it right on the head. You're such a great visionary, Lex, you know, that we need to talk about transportation in general and we need to fund transportation in general; and I think that when you do that, the issues of integration, the issues of accessibility will be there because the other factor is we're in a society that's aging. There is going to be a lot more people over 50, that there are going to be a lot more people dependent -- I don't want to use that word -- although the disabled community is disproportionately dependent on transportation, but there is a lot more people that want to use transportation because of the environment, because of the convenience, because of the safety -- >> LEX: Well, and additionally, the cost of gasoline keeps going up. The environment keeps breaking down -- those two factors, sooner or later, will drive more and more people toward a shared solution of transportation, whether that be public or private I think. >> MICHAEL: Right. And if you look at -- if you look at societies, you know, where everybody meets on public transportation. You know, in Washington we have a great system. All types of economic stratas of people ride the train. It's very effective in making sure there is not any more congestion on the roadways, and so transportation is such a -- such a key to having a community be able to network, have a community be able to work together. And the other issue, of course, is the economic development issue. You know, where you have transit is where you produce a better economy. I mean, every dollar spent on transit brings back nine dollars for the economy. >> LEX: Well, at some point public officials are going to have to prioritize more transportation. I can tell you that in our community in Houston, the quality of our service, which is second to none in my opinion, would not be as good as it is if we were depending strictly on the funds that came through Washington. Our city has a tax base that provides funds to support public transportation and without that over the last 15 or 20 years, we would not have the development that we do have in our paratransit and our light rail or in our infrastructure to support transportation. So that, you know, really gets down to the point where consumers, people who are using transportation now, and that falls largely to people with disabilities who need transportation, we have to deal with issues of improved quality, but we also have to become part of the solution to the long term problem, it seems to me, by being advocates of public transportation in general and by helping to lobby for and secure better priorities and better funding base for transportation in communities across America. >> MICHAEL: Well, Lex, you're not only a great visionary, but you're also a very smart business person. Diversity is the key and if you're running a business, you've got to be diverse, and if you're running a public transit system, you've got to be diverse. You've got to have different levels of funding and different levels of commitment and the key to people wanting to invest in public transportation is people feel like they have some sort of ownership. The other issue that we need to explore, and I was very happy to hear that Houston METRO has been doing this for a long time, is the issue of how do we use the taxicab industry in supporting our transportation of people, and even beyond taxis, but how about accessible taxis. I know there is a big struggle in New York to increase the number of accessible taxis. We're very lucky in my community where I live in Arlington, that we have 20 or more accessible taxis that are contracted out for the paratransit, but they are letters used for other people that are not ADA eligible for paratransit. So the disability community is at the forefront of innovation. We've had no choice but to be at the forefront of innovation and forward-thinking, and I think that we need to look at how we can merge the public and private sector together to create more mobility for America, but particularly Americans with disabilities and the elderly population. >> LEX: Michael, what I'd like to do now is take some questions that we've had E-mailed in and that people have submitted through the webcast network here and, Rachel, would you please forward to us a question for Michael. >> RACHEL: Sure. I actually have two questions for you that relate to the whole issue of rural transportation and I'll go ahead and give you those first. The first one you've pretty much addressed, but they're looking to see if you have anything else to tell them. This is a nonprofit agency that's in a rural area where there is not transportation. There is Medicaid reimbursed transportation for medical related transit for people with disabilities. Do you have suggestions for how the nonprofit there might be able to gain funding to provide additional transportation? >> MICHAEL: Okay. Well, first of all, there is a lot of money that might be available to the nonprofit in terms of vehicle acquisition and also operating assistance depending on what type of transportation they provide. And we have a website of www.fta.dot.gov. And we have regional offices. We have an office in each of the ten regions and they should be able to help the individual with them understanding of what the funding sources are available. Every state gets money for rural transportation, and there is a -- it's not called this, but there is a rural transportation plan that is developed and money goes to different nonprofits and different organizations to provide rural transportation. The other thing that I think might come into play here is the whole issue of coordination, and we have a campaign going on right now called united we ride. And also you can get that information from the regional offices, but we're trying to bring together transit agencies, social service agencies, nonprofits, and look at where there are gaps in transportation, where there is funding for transportation and see how we can coordinate that effort. So the situation is bleak, but I think that we made a concerted effort to try to look at that issue very seriously and to try to address it. In the new legislation that's being proposed, the legislation right now is called T.-21 transportation efficiency act. The next legislation is called safety and I can't quite remember what that stands for, but basically we have proposed to put more money into planning. We think that -- and especially planning in rural areas -- we think that one of the first steps is to make sure that the community is involved in -- not only involved but understands the process -- in terms of getting money for rural areas and that they have direct input into what kind of transportation is provided and how it's provided. >> LEX: Michael, do the same rules apply to the money that is for rural transportation that applies to the money going to city transportation? In other words, do all those vehicles that are purchased with those grants have to be accessible? >> MICHAEL: the rule is that all the vehicles in rural areas don't necessarily have to be accessible. They have to show the capacity to serve people with disabilities. >> LEX: So if people with disabilities who in rural areas are generally not activists because they don't have peers to relate to in many cases, are not involved in that planning process, there may be a whole fleet of nonaccessible vehicles in a rural county. >> MICHAEL: There conceivably could be, and I think the key again -- and you said this -- you know, with the ADA, which you led the effort on, Lex, which you know that this is true, this is a two-way street, the disabled community has to take the responsibility to not only educate themselves, but to get themselves involved in the processes and where things start in this country is planning processes and so, you know, we're trying to get money out there to not only educate people, but train people on how to get involved in those processes. Go ahead. >> LEX: the answer to the lady's question or the person who sent in the question about not for profits providing more transportation is there may well be some funding available to purchase vehicles, to assist with operations or maybe even to assist with planning, but that's a case-by-case basis and the best way to learn about it is to contact the regional transit office or to search the web on the FTA site. >> MICHAEL: Right. That's correct. >> RACHEL: Okay, great. All right, as a follow-up question and actually I think you've largely addressed this. This one comes from an old friend of yours, Jim Parker, who says he remembers sitting and blocking buses with you back in the '80's. And he wanted you -- I believe you actually just discussed some of the initiatives he was talking about, but the initiatives to really mesh together transit from all -- a number of different providers. Is there a way -- some of the initiatives that you've been talking about and I believe one of them you called is united we ride, where people with can get more information about those. >> MICHAEL: Yeah, I think that, again, if you go to the FTA website, there is a whole -- there is a whole area that talks about united we ride and the coordination effort. We have that fully staffed. In fact, we just completed a round of giving out mini grants to states to start dealing with this issue of coordination and lack of services in rural areas. So there was over a million dollars worth of grants given out and we did our best to make sure that the disabled community was involved in that process and that we actually encouraged in the grant making process that the grant -- the grants that show coordination with the disabled community would get a higher priority than grants that did not show that effort. So we are very committed to -- the Federal Transit Administration is very committed to involvement of the consumer community in our planning process. We believe that the essence of public transportation is involving the community and we want to do everything we can to make sure that that happens. >> RACHEL: Okay, great. >> LEX: Michael, you mentioned consumer involvement, and I mean, you as a person with a disability said that you were involved in protests about nonaccessible transportation. I know that the people who are doing the fine job of running our super accessible systems in Houston shared the same beginnings as people with disabilities who have gone from protesting a lack of access to basically solving the problems of access for all of us. That is a unique aspect of the disability movement, is it not? >> MICHAEL: Well, we all -- we all started, you know, on the streets I guess. You know, we -- our generation of people with disabilities, that's what we had to do in order to gain civil rights and we had great leaders like you being one of them, Lex, Justin Dart, Jr. >> LEX: Wade blank. >> MICHAEL: the ADAPT people and Mike Kafka and, you know, we did not just go out there and protest and protest. We had a plan that that was the way to bring about visibility. >> LEX: but we also -- some of us, not me, but you and Jim Laughlin and others, actually committed your lives after that to showing people how to solve the problem. I mean, it might not still be solved if some of you had not made your career showing others how to solve the problem. >> MICHAEL: Well, I don't know how much of an impact we had, but one thing, if I can go back to my childhood, if you don't mind if I regress here a minute, I grew up right next to a transit stop in Chicago, and the L. train was half a block from my house, and this is a train that goes all over Chicago. And it was inaccessible, and I would ask my mother this question all the time, you know, sometimes she really did not know how to answer it and I would say, if it's public transportation, why can't I get on it? And she would go, oh, that's a really good question. And so, you know, I kind of took that with me and the first time that I was able to ride a public bus was actually when I went to Berkeley and I was 27 years old and I still remember that feeling of getting on that bus. You know, I felt like I was really part of society. I'm on a bus and I kept riding the bus that whole day, you know. And so that was really great. And if you look at the civil rights movement, if you look at Rosa Parks, that was the start of the civil rights movement of people using public transportation and that sort of stuck with me. Public transportation is the center of people being able to be part of society and I just think it's so important that public transportation be accessible. >> LEX: Well, transportation actually helped to empower the disability movement because, you know, putting yourself in a very risky situation, parking a wheelchair in front of a bus is an empowering kind of feeling, unless the bus moves. And many people pulling themselves up the steps of buses. You know, you actually achieved something when you're there. It's a symbolic statement, but it's empowering, and I suppose many of the people listening to this webcast and participating here could tell a story about the very first time they were on a transit vehicle as you did when you were 27 years old. >> MICHAEL: Yeah, it's instant gratification, that's for sure. And it's definitely a feeling of empowerment to be able to stop that bus and say if we can't get on no one else is going to get on. >> LEX: and I think many of us have the means -- many of us who may have the means to have private transportation are committed to using public transportation. Michael, I know you were kind enough to join me for dinner on Wednesday night and when we left the restaurant, a considerable ways from downtown where you were staying -- >> MICHAEL: Considerable ways. >> LEX: I offered you the opportunity to use the public transit and you really did so. >> MICHAEL: Yeah, I have a person with me assisting me, and we actually, you know, went to the bus stop. The bus had a 30 minute headway. The bus came in five minutes. We got lucky. We went to -- from there we went to the transit center. They call it a transit center with light rail. We took the light rail and we got left off about three blocks from our house and we went the final three blocks on foot which was the pedestrian access. So, you know, public transportation and mobility is a very wonderful experience. >> LEX: and the trip did not take you much longer, as it turns out -- in fact, if you had had to wait for a taxicab in that location, your trip actually may have taken longer because you would have been waiting for the taxi. As it turns out, you were lucky as you said, the bus came soon after you got to the stop, but you paid I guess a total of two dollars -- >> MICHAEL: a dollar a piece. >> LEX: to make that transit and I guarantee you from that distance a taxi would have cost you at least $30. >> MICHAEL: Yes. >> LEX: So there are many reasons why people ought to use public transportation. I think we're talking about a number of people who don't have access to it. Are there rural areas where there are good models, Michael? And do you promote those areas and use them as models for other communities? >> MICHAEL: There are areas where there are models where there is a very good coordinated effort. Of course the rural areas do not have the light rails or the big transit systems, but there are a lot of rural areas that are experimenting with what's called demand response where instead of having a fixed route, you can call in and say I want to be -- I want to go to this place or that place and they are very good at doing that and also the other term -- I'm not trying to get too technical here -- is called route deviation, where you can go on the bus and say I want to go this way or I want to get close to that way and they'll do a route deviation for you in the rural areas. >> LEX: Where is that? >> MICHAEL: I can't remember the specific location, but if you contact our office -- >> LEX: We have criminals that get on the bus here late at night -- >> MICHAEL: And they do route deviation. >> LEX: I guess this is a little different approach. Rachel, do you have another question for us? >> RACHEL: Oh, yes, I've got lots of questions for you. Okay, I have a number of questions that have to do with standby and their connection to denials. If I can, let me paraphrase a couple of them for you and then you guys can discuss the whole issue. Basically people want to know if standbys -- if they are frequent, is that in and of itself a violation of the ADA? And if so, is there a possible remedy? There also is a real question about at what point does a standby become a denial? You know, for example, if somebody requests a two-way trip so they want to leave their home at 7 and then they want to leave the store where they are at 10 to come home, if they are put on standby for the first leg of the trip and aren't able to find out until the very last minute if they can take that trip, and then at that point it's too late for them, does that whole trip, both legs, do they become denials? And there also is some interest kind of as a follow-up to that about what happens with the reporting of denials and who is keeping track of them? >> MICHAEL: Okay, well, let me try to address the first question. And I'm going to give you a generic answer and this is what I tell the transit communities and the disabled communities. The law says if you call 24 hours in advance, they are required to give you a ride. There shouldn't be an issue with standby. If you call 24 hours in advance, you have a right to have a ride back and forth. >> LEX: So all trips should be scheduled trips? >> MICHAEL: Yes, yes, yes. Now, you know, there is the windows and I even admit that it takes a mathematical genius sometimes to figure out all the windows and the pick up times and all that, but the basic premise and issue, if you call 24 hours in advance, you have a right to have a ride. The issue of denials -- this is something that's being debated now and probably will be debated until the end of time. How do you count denials and all that, but our basic premise is that if a trip -- if you can get there, I mean, if they say they can't get you there, but they can take you back, to me, that's two denials. So let's say, you know, oh, well, we can get you back, but we can't get you there. If you do not take the first trip -- I mean if you do not take the second trip, then that's two denials. If you take the second trip, then maybe that should only be one denial, but if you didn't take the second trip. Okay, but let's go off into another scenario. Let's say if you had a 16 segment trip where -- and these are -- some of these cases it really happens in places -- somebody might go 16 different places in one day. That for them to -- if they can't get you there, is it fair to say -- but they can get you on all the other segments, is it fair to say to the transit agency that that's 15 denials. I would say, no, that's not reasonable. I think somewhere in the middle we have to compromise here. You know, two or three segments, or they call them legs -- I don't really know what terminology is appropriate -- but basically we've got to be reasonable here. I think the basic issue is that they should be able to get you there and get you back from where you're going and if they can't do that, I think that that's a denial. >> LEX: Within a reasonable period of time. >> MICHAEL: Of course, within the legal period of time that's allotted by the ADA and so when we go in to look at transit agencies, we -- we look at that, you know, and again the two issues we look at is you have to have the capacity to schedule rides 24 hours in advance. And you shouldn't be putting people on standby or telling people maybe they're going to get a ride, and the second thing is, we look at how they are counting denials. >> LEX: Michael, can you be specific, what is the window for reasonability? >> MICHAEL: Well, this is a technical answer and there has to be half hour windows and different things. I can get you the exact -- the exact language if you -- I'll give you my E-mail. It's michael.winter@fta.dot.gov. It's a very complicated scenario. >> LEX: That's problematic to me. If it's so complicated that you can't explain it, I'm not going to be able to understand it. Can it be more transparent? >> MICHAEL: Well, we're trying to work on that. That's one of the issues. It is very, very complicated and it's very good for people to be able to look at it on paper and understand it. One of the things -- >> LEX: Your mailbox is going to be full. >> MICHAEL: That's fine. That's what I'm paid for. I'm a public servant. One thing that we do is that we try our best, and we're absolutely require of this transit agencies that they put this in writing. We had one transit agency that basically said they didn't want to show the disabled people their policy around no show or their windows or late cancellations, that they would read it over to them over the phone. I said, you know, that is -- that doesn't make any business sense and it's illegal. So we will -- we will crack down on that. >> LEX: So in reality, in the current situation, the windows may vary even according to maybe community by community? >> MICHAEL: No, not really, no. There is a constant way that they have to schedule you within a certain amount of time. They have -- they have a certain amount of time to be late. There is set rules on that. It doesn't matter what community. >> LEX: but if I have a trip at ten o'clock in the morning and they offer me one at the same location at 4:00 p.m, have they meet their obligation? >> MICHAEL: if they -- if you ask for a trip at 4:00 p.m? >> LEX: at 10:00 a.m. and they offer me one at 4:00 p.m -- >> MICHAEL: No, that's not within the windows. >> LEX: So what is -- what if they offer me one at 1:00 p.m? >> MICHAEL: No, they have to offer within an hour. And then when they offer it within an hour, once you set the time, that's why this is kind of very confusing, then you have another window that goes into effect. >> LEX: So if they offer me -- if I ask for ten o'clock and they offer me 11 and then they change it, they can change it to 11:30 or something like that, right? >> MICHAEL: Well, if they tell you a specific time, they have a half hour to show up. They are considered late -- I think it's within 10 or 15 minutes, but the other issue, it really depends on what the policy of the transit agencies are. >> LEX: So it is a case by case, community by community basis? >> MICHAEL: Well, no, there is a standard by which they -- there is a minimum standard, but they can do better than that standard. >> LEX: and they must stay within their own standard? >> MICHAEL: Oh, absolutely. It's just like any kind of policies, if a company has policies, they have to -- even if their standards are above the minimum, they have to adhere to their standards. >> LEX: Which is another reason for consumers, people with disabilities in this case, to be involved with the agencies and realize that they can have some influence on how strict or unstrict those standards are set. >> MICHAEL: Well, I think that it's a good business to -- for a transit agency to absolutely get the involvement of people with disabilities. >> LEX: Is that one of the criteria you use when you're doing an assessment of a community's accessibility? >> MICHAEL: We look at a number of things. That is ' not legally mandated, but it's something that we ask about and we look at, you know. >> LEX: Okay. >> MICHAEL: You know, the main thing that we look at -- again, one thing I want to make very clear here is that we -- our mandate is to look at the results of what they've done. We cannot go in and say you need to set up this system or you need to use a GPS or we think this scheduling system is best for you, we think you should contract out or use your own staff to deal with this dispatching. We are limited, and we will look at what are the results of what you've done. Because in some cases, contracting out is better, and in some cases not. The thing that we do suggest when people are sort of off on a tangent one way or another in what they are trying to accomplish, is that we tell them about other systems that we think are doing a good job. And Houston is one of the systems that we refer people to in terms of their scheduling, in terms of their zero denials, in terms of their interaction with the community. There is other good places like Austin, Texas; Salt Lake city, Utah. So there are -- Pittsburgh, they have an excellent system with their paratransit system. So there are -- and I'm not saying any of these sometimes are perfect, but they are generally working with the disabled community. They are generally trying to solve problems and work with individuals in trying to resolve problems. >> LEX: Rachel. >> RACHEL: Okay, I guess the last part to kind of tie that section up is people really want to know what should they do if they know that -- based on what you're saying, if they are clear that their system is out of compliance? >> MICHAEL: Well, they should -- they should contact me and I will forward that information to my appropriate staff. We have -- we have a complaint process. We don't try to necessarily turn everything into a complaint right away, but we will look at it and see if it is a complaint. We just sent staff to two different places. I won't mention the places, but one was in the Midwest and one was in the Southwest, and we are being a lot more aggressive in terms of trying to get into these places at the very beginning when we see a number of complaints. And in one city we saw 16 complaints filed and so we weren't going to wait for making an investigation. We went right in there. At another place there was an issue of calling out bus stops and we went right in that community right away and said we think that there might be a problem here. So, again, what I'm trying to do is try to get into these communities as soon as possible, deal with these issues so we don't have a long, drawn out complaint process. It doesn't do anybody any good to be dealing with a complaint for a year; because we have to -- when we get into a complaint process, we have to give the transit agency time to respond to complaints. We have to go back to the disabled person and ask them if we really -- if they really think that the response from the transit agency is adequate. We have to go back to the transit agency with we don't think that your answer is appropriate and we need more documentation. >> LEX: So sometimes you can resolve the question much quicker by doing it -- by resolving it before you get to a formal complaint process? >> MICHAEL: Yes, and we will try to do that as much as possible. Because I've been in this business a long time, I know most of the general managers and a lot of times it's just a quick phone call. So we're really -- our goal is to be as much consumer driven as possible and try to get to the complaints as quick as possible. >> RACHEL: Okay, great. And when we -- this webcast will be archived. So I just want to let people know that we will put a link on the archived page with Michael's E-mail address. >> MICHAEL: You know the other thing is we also have on our -- actually a better way to do this -- they can contact me, but we have a website that is called www.fta.dot.gov/ada. There is actually a complaint form on that website and that's the best way to do it because that's basically what I'm going to have to do. I'm going to have to call -- I mean I'm going to have to take that information, get it over to one of my staff. So if you want to be -- if you want to get things done a lot quicker, it's better to go directly to that website and do that. The other thing if people do not have computers, and there is a digital divide in this country, we do have an 800-number and it's 1-888-446-4511. And we -- there is not a live person on that phone, but if you leave a message and leave information, we'll get back to you. It won't be that day probably, but it will be within the next couple or three days. >> RACHEL: Okay, great. We'll post both of those up on the website. Before I shift us to the next topic, somebody did just E-mail in asking for a clarification about the issue of 24 hour notice. She wants to know is it actually 24 hour notice or is it until the close of business the day before the trip? >> MICHAEL: It's 24 hour notice. The day before -- the day before, I'm sorry. It's the day before. >> RACHEL: Okay, the day before. Okay, great. Are you ready for more questions? >> MICHAEL: Sure. >> RACHEL: Okay. >> MICHAEL: This is the most fun I've had in a long time. >> RACHEL: Okay, I've got a set of questions that have to do with the issue of -- well, let me read a sentence out of the regulations. It says, if by 21 days following the submission of a complete application, the entity has not made a determination of eligibility, the applicant shall be treated as eligible and provided service until and unless the entity denies the application. So this is about eligibility for paratransit. And this question comes from a consumer whose transportation agency, they believe, is not counting the 21 days properly. The scenario is that their agency does not begin the timer of counting the 21 days until after the agency has sent an application to the consumer. The consumer has filled it out and returned it, oftentimes the application has to be returned to the consumer to be completed properly, then returned again to the agency, then another piece or part of the application has to be sent to a physician and then that has to be returned to the agency and at that point they begin the clock. And apparently in this community there have been reports of delays of months and months, even up to eight months. Can you provide some clarity on this 21 day issue and I guess the last -- the last question having to do with 21 days is, are the 21 days consecutive days or are those 21 workdays? >> MICHAEL: Well, first of all, I want to say if anybody is having problems with this, please let us know because, again, this is something that we are constantly trying to educate the transit agencies on; and the 21 days should run once the decision -- once the responsibility has shifted -- once you send in your application to the transit agency, that's when the 21 days start. So once you've completed that, you are eligible after 21 days, and it's consecutive days. >> LEX: Well, Saturdays and Sundays are also transit days. >> MICHAEL: Yes, yes, yes. And a lot of transit agencies are misinterpreting this and saying, you know, it's when we make the decision and that's not true. It's 21 days after you can show proof that you have sent in the actual application. So if there is a way that you can do a return receipt or a photocopy when you send it in, that would be very helpful. >> LEX: Michael, now what if you get your 21 days and the determination has still not been made? >> MICHAEL: Then they have to provide -- then ire eligible for paratransit. There is no question there. >> LEX: So at least you'll get a minimum and if you're denied then maybe no more. >> MICHAEL: Right. They have to provide you paratransit service up until the point that they deny you, and then if there is a denial, of course, you have an appeal process. >> LEX: Rachel. >> RACHEL: Okay. Let's see, I've got a question here about seat belts and actually it's interesting that somebody sent this in because we've gotten this same question here at our DBTAC as well. Just for some background, transportation agencies can have a policy of requiring seat belts as long as everyone on the bus is required to wear seat belts. When it comes to fixed route bus systems, we don't know of any that are requiring seat belts for everybody, but seat belts are required in paratransit buses. And the first question is, is it allowable to require seat belts in paratransit buses when they are not required in fixed route buses? The second question is -- and this is the question we've heard before and would love the answer to, Michael -- if somebody, a rider, has a letter from a physician that states clearly that for medical reasons he or she cannot use a seat belt, that it would actually cause them harm, and I've seen this because of either seizures or fragile bones, that a transit agency then is refusing a ride to the person; and is that legal? >> MICHAEL: Okay. Well, first of all, on paratransit vehicles can require that you wear a seat belt and, you know, the only issue -- and this would only be an issue of coordinated transportation as long as they are requiring everybody on the paratransit vehicle to wear the seat belt. >> LEX: but there is no relationship between whether they require seat belts on the main line -- on a fixed route? >> MICHAEL: No, paratransit is a separate entity. The issue of whether or not a person with a medical situation is required to wear a seat belt -- again, that has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis and there is an issue of reasonable modification that comes into play there and I know we've had a couple of cases and it really, really depends on the medical documentation. It really depends on how you're looking at reasonable modification and it really would have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. >> LEX: Well, let me just give you a hypothetical case, and that is assume that I am a person with a condition of fragile bones or something of that nature or a skin condition perhaps that my physician would say it's not a good thing to have somebody ratcheting down a safety belt on me. It could endanger me, but I still need to ride the paratransit. Now, if I came forward with the suggestion that I had discussed with my physician that maybe some kind of a modified restraint system were used for me, the transit agency would have to consider that, would they not? >> MICHAEL: I definitely think they would. And again, I would have to look at the particular case, but my feeling and my sense is that they would; and we also have reverse situations where if a person is riding a paratransit vehicle and they can't -- they can't operate the seat belt themself, whether or not the paratransit operator has the responsibility to put that seat belt on the person. >> LEX: and the answer? >> MICHAEL: the answer is -- my answer is yes, of course, and we even had a situation where if a parent is traveling with a kid, does the -- is it the responsibility of the operator even though the person is not disabled, the kid is not disabled, to put the seat belt on the kid if the parent can't do that? And my answer again is yes, it would be, because in essence if the parent is traveling with the kid, it's not the paratransit ride is for the parent, not for the kid. The kid is not disabled, that parent would not -- if that parent needs to go someplace, you know, with that kid to a medical appointment, that person is not going to be able to take that trip unless the person is being able to -- unless the seat belt is being fastened. >> LEX: But the transit agency is responsible if they require people to put on the seat belt to fasten it. >> MICHAEL: That's my assessment of the situation. >> LEX: And in the case of the person who -- >> MICHAEL: Could I say something here? Could I say something right here? With the second example, it's really a rare case, and I want to really say this for a paratransit operator or individual not to fasten somebody's seat belt. So it's really the case where -- it's the exception to the rule where someone is not doing that or that we have a problem with that. It doesn't usually come up so I just want to clarify that. >> LEX: Now, the first case which does come up, you said, on a few occasions -- >> MICHAEL: We've had a few cases. >> LEX: It is also -- I think we have to bear in mind a liability for the transit agency to carry someone without any kind of restraint system. So the transit agency has an investment in ensuring that person's safety and there must be some kind of restraint system that -- >> MICHAEL: Right. But I think that your suggestion -- and this is what we suggest -- is there any kind of -- is there any kind of restraint system that can be used that would not interfere with the person's disability or their situation? >> LEX: So we can approach that the same way we do any other ADA reasonable accommodation, and that is the person who needs the assistance is most likely to get it if they can articulate, describe, a type of assistance that would suit them and that begins at least the opportunity for discussion about whether that's a reasonable request or not. >> MICHAEL: That's correct. And where we get into problems is where the paratransit provider doesn't even want to discuss that, doesn't even want to have any dialogue about what might be possible or what's not -- what might be a reasonable modification. >> LEX: Well, that's ridiculous. Shut them down, Michael. Well, Rachel -- >> RACHEL: Okay. I'm mindful of the time. I do have a handful of additional questions. We've got about 15 minutes left. >> MICHAEL: Okay, I'll do my best. >> RACHEL: Let's see what we can get in here. I have a couple of questions about the calling out of stops. And I know this can be a hot topic, especially lately. Let's see, there is a question about has there been a relaxation in rules regarding the calling out of stops and is there some connection to some relaxation with the -- I guess new technology -- where you can program the electronic equipment to call out the stops? And what complaint process should be used when, you know, that system is breaking down? And from somebody else we have a question about whether there are successful ways to mandate fixed route drivers to call out the stops? >> MICHAEL: Okay. Well, let me start this conversation off by saying, again, we do not tell a transit agency how they need to achieve compliance, whether it's through an electronic means or whether it's through an actual person. Saying that, there is no -- none -- relaxation of any rules about calling out stops. The fixed route operators are required to call out stops. We will find them out of compliance if they are not doing it, so that's how I want to answer that question. On the use of enunciators, if they do have a system where it is an enunciator system, they are allows to use that in place of an actual human being calling out stops. Now, the issue there is that it has to be loud enough for people to hear it, whether it's an enunciator or it's a driver. You know, we've had cases where we've had complaints from passengers where the enunciators are either turned off or they are not -- they are so low you can't hear them anyway, so that's not acceptable, but the short answer to the question is there is absolutely no relaxation on that issue. In fact, we just went into one agency and told them that if they did not call out stops for -- in this case it was members of the blind community -- that those people would be eligible for paratransit and also we find them out of compliance. >> LEX: But, Michael, some people with disabilities and people without disabilities need to hear the stops and it seems to me in my personal experience that some drivers will decide whether they're going to call out stops depending on whether they saw somebody get on the bus with a white cane or not. That's a fall as is I, too, to believe that only visually impaired people need the stops called out. >> MICHAEL: No, let me clarify. The drivers are required to call out stops. You know, it's not -- you can't make an assumption that there is a disabled person on the bus or not. They are required to call out stops. The second part of that question was what kind of incentives or training programs for drivers -- you know, a lot of this gets back, unfortunately, to the unions and progressive discipline and all that. And it's a very sticky issue sometimes. We had one city where the unions and the disabled people are getting together and saying they only want enunciators on their buses. They don't want the drivers calling out stops. They wanted us to intervene in that. Well, we can't intervene in whether or not they use human beings or they use enunciators. We can only intervene in the fact whether it's being done. So I think that the disabled community needs to work with the transit community and the unions need to be educated about the fact that if you don't call out a stop it's a denial of a civil right for a person and the agency can be found out of compliance. >> LEX: And the other question out of there was what do people do if they -- if the enunciators seem to be out of sync all the time or if the drivers don't speak loudly enough -- what is the complaint process? >> MICHAEL: It's the same complaint process. You would -- you know, send a complaint to FTA -- >> LEX: But you should also, it seems to me, file a complaint with the local transit agency. >> MICHAEL: Right. I was just going to say that. You know, one thing that my staff does when we look at complaints, the first thing we do is we go to the transit agency. And we say how many complaints have you gotten in this area? Now, I know sometimes there is a lot of frustration where people don't -- they are tired of calling the transit agency because they figure their complaints are not being answered, but it really helps us when we go in and look at places that you have -- even if you file a complaint with us, that every time there is a problem or a situation, that you call it in, and a lot of places now you can send those complaints over the Internet and that you keep that documentation or at least write it down so the people that we have going into these places, you know -- we have situations where we know that there is elevator outages and we go in there and there is zero complaints that the transit agency has on elevators. I mean, we're still going to do our job and still go in there and do our best, but it really helps us if you also file those complaints with the transit agencies. >> LEX: Yeah, it seems you have several problems. Number one, transit agencies that may not actually know people on their system are violating -- their own employees are violating the rules and maybe they can do something about it if they did. Another situation where transit agencies are taking complaints but doing nothing about them, and then finally, a situation where you're getting complaints, but the transit agencies are not aware of it. And I would suggest that you may want to look at what the airline industry is doing in regard to complaints from people with disabilities because there is a standard of accountability there and if Department of Transportation in this case contacts the airlines, they have to provide a record of what they've done with the complaint. And part of the process for determining whether they are in violation or not is whether they have actually taken quick action to resolve the complaint before you hear about it. >> MICHAEL: Right. Well, we look at all that, but again, I think your original issue is if they don't file a complaint with the transit agencies, then we don't have any record to see whether they followed up with anything on it. So that -- that's my point. We look at whether they followed up on their complaints and the time line and what happened to those complaints. We have complete access to those files when we go in there. >> LEX: but it seems you would be more likely to take a punitive approach if you found the transit agency that had stacked up complaints and had not resolved the problem than you would if you found a transit agency that never really heard there was a problem until they heard it from you. >> MICHAEL: Right. And we would be -- well, let me put it like this -- if there is a problem, we're going to deal with the problem. So even if they responded to the complaint and did nothing about it, but it's easier when we do have complaints to back up the situation. >> LEX: So the advice for people is to make the transit agency aware. >> MICHAEL: Absolutely. >> LEX: and also if they've done it once or twice and then nothing, to also make you aware of it. >> MICHAEL: Right and you have ADA coordinators for cities and counties in a lot of cases. They have brought situations to our attention. So, you know, the community really needs to look at these issues and network and if there is a particular issue that is happening in the community, let us know about it and what Lex said is so valuable, yes, definitely file complaints with the transit agencies. >> LEX: Rachel? >> RACHEL: Okay, I have two other -- I guess separate questions I'd like to try the squeeze in if I can. The first set has to do with contractors. I guess these two questions are very loosely connected. One is if you have a project contractor who is running the paratransit services, can you clarify the responsibilities for compliance with the ADA with the contractor as well as the transit agency? And the other question has to do with a community where there is a contractor that provides the paratransit, the transit agency provides discounted passes on fixed route, but the paratransit provider does not provide discounts. And is that legal? >> MICHAEL: Well, the paratransit entity is not required to provide discounts because they are providing paratransit. So that's the first. >> LEX: This was the same kind of issue as the seat belt issue. People have to understand that paratransit is not the same service as fixed route transit. So they can have different rules for both. >> MICHAEL: Right. The first question though is something that I'm very clear with transit agencies on. When we do assessments or when we deal with ADA violations, we do not deal with the contractors. We go right to the transit agencies. Even when the transit agencies refer us back to the contractors, the transit agencies are responsible for the ADA compliance, not the contractors. And this is the basic premise of civil rights law and the ADA, you know, you can't contract out your responsibility under the ADA. You can't -- you're still responsible for compliance with the ADA. Now, you know, we have a number of transit agencies that use these brokerage systems and where two or three transit agencies in a community will contract with one paratransit provider to provide their paratransit. All three of those transit agencies are still responsible for ADA compliance issues, and they are the ones that need to deal with the contractor, not us, you know. So when we go in and do compliance assessments, the compliance assessments are with the general manager present, with the ADA people present, and if they want to bring in their contractors, that's certainly their prerogative, but that's who we deal with, the entity that is legally responsible for compliance with the ADA. >> LEX: and you hold the contractors accountable at the same standard you would the agency if they were providing the service? >> MICHAEL: Yes, but we hold the agency responsible to make sure the contractors are providing the service under the ADA. >> LEX: So bottom line is the service should be just as good if it's contracted as it is if the agency is providing it? >> MICHAEL: It should comply with the ADA. It doesn't make any difference. >> LEX: The standard of service is equivalent -- >> MICHAEL: That's correct. >> RACHEL: Okay, I think there are a few questions we won't be able to get to. So I just wanted to let people know that Mr. Winter and his office will answer those questions by E-mail, but to kind of close this out, there are a couple of questions asking for some clarity about what is mandated in terms of involvement of people with disabilities when it comes to developing paratransit policies? So if you want some of the specifics from it, you know, are the transportation agencies required to hold public meetings to update customers? Must they notify everybody about those? >> LEX: Where can people get the rules, Michael? >> MICHAEL: Again, you can contact FTA, but one thing that I really want to clarify here is that after 1997 that transit agencies are not required to have paratransit plans necessarily. They were supposed to submit those plans by 1997. If they are going to be changing -- if they're going to be changing the rules or changing anything, they have to abide by their public policy process and there is also -- it really depends on what they are doing. That the law kicks in on notifying the public. So it's real I case by case and we have to look at what exactly is going on, but the paratransit plans, what they were supposed to be -- they were all supposed to be completed by 1997, and after that, we don't really have that much jurisdiction over them. They were supposed to have come into place to show that they were going to be able to provide paratransit to ADA eligible customers. >> LEX: So your standard for those agencies is what their plan was fixed in 1997, whether they are meeting their own commitment in their plan, right? >> MICHAEL: Well, really our standard is whether or not -- whether they are compliant with the ADA. >> LEX: So the question is not whether people with disabilities can be involved in the plan development process, because the plan is already established, but how can they be involved in operating and ensuring good quality of the program? And is there a requirement that they do be involved in that? >> MICHAEL: There is a requirement that they are involved with that. It's also a requirement in general, and that's what I'm trying to say, it really depends on the case, that there is a requirement in general that if they are changing routes or if they are changing different kind of things, that there has to be evidence of public hearings, there has to be evidence of involvement in general and so that's where those kind of regulations kick in. There has to be an ongoing mechanism for input from the disabled community, but it's really -- it's really not really defined as to what that means. >> LEX: So different cities may do it in different ways. >> MICHAEL: That's right. >> LEX: Many cities have consumer advisory committees, the answer really would be to call your local transit agency and find out how you can get involved, and if they don't seem to have any kind of suggestion, maybe they need to be in touch with you so you can clarify the question for the transit agency, right? >> MICHAEL: Right. Because there is very, very clear regulations about public involvement when a transit agency is changing routes or, you know -- >> RACHEL: I believe also somebody asked, is a public hearing required when they there are changes to paratransit reservations? >> MICHAEL: You know, it really depends -- I'm not trying to avoid the question, but it really is a case-by-case basis and we really need to look at the situation because if it's something that was already in their paratransit plan, they already had a public hearing on it and they're just modifying a little part of it, so really we need to look at the particular situation. And the other thing -- remember, now, depending on which state or which county you are in, there is different sunshine laws that are involved, you know, sunshine laws are laws whether you can do things in public or not public or, you know, so it really, really depends on the situation so I don't want to give a definite answer on that, but the main thing is if you have an issue or a concern about that, please let me know and let my office know and we'll get back to you on it. >> LEX: We're going to wrap up the call now and let me remind you all of Rachel's commitment, and that is to get on the web the archive of this webcast and also to forward the remaining questions as well as those that we've already answered to a certain degree and maybe not fully, get those questions to Michael and his staff and we'll try to get answers up on the web to the remaining questions and clarifications to others and if we need to, if there is enough demand, maybe we'll need to have another one of these webcasts in the not too distant future. I want to thank Michael Winter for taking the time to do this. I want to thank Houston METRO for providing the facilities for us. I want to recognize the Disability Law Resource Project at ILRU and TIRR, and in particular our hostess, Rachel Kosoy, and the webcast team over there at ILRU, Marj Gordon, Sharon Finney, Dawn Heinsohn, Vinh Nguyen, Rachel, of course and Rob Dickehuth and Marie Bryant, thanks to you for the great job captioning this program. Sometimes it's difficult for us on the live web here to make our voices as loud as they need to be to get a good caption, and Marie does a great job trying to capture every word. So we appreciate that. The 800 number of the Disability Law Resource Project here in Houston is 800-499-4232. If you're outside our region, you'll reach one of our sister organizations elsewhere in the country. There are ten Disability and Business Technical Assistance Centers of which we're proud to have one, thanks to funding from the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research. Again, Michael, thank you for being here. >> MICHAEL: Thank you, Lex. >> LEX: And thank you all for joining us. See you next time on a future webcast. Bye.