Basic Public Vocational Rehabilitation Process. Presenters: Cheryl Bates-Harris and David Hutt. >> TANJAUNA: Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome to the webcast the Basic Public Vocational Rehabilitation Process. My name is Tajauna Arnold. I will be moderating today's webcast and voicing your questions to the presenters. You can submit questions any time throughout this webcast. However, I want to encourage you to submit questions you may already have at the beginning of this webcast. You can submit questions by clicking the submit question button at the bottom of your RealOne Player screen, or simply address it to webcast@ilru.org. Questions will be posed to the presenter upon the presenter's request. I would like to know that if you choose to wait until the presenter is closing before submitting your question, your question will then be sent via E-mail to the presenter. However, it is up to the presenter's discretion and available time as to whether or not an answer will be provided. Additionally, if anyone has technical difficulties during this webcast, please call (713)520-0232 and dial 0 for the operator. This number is both voice and TTY capable. Today's webcast has a PowerPoint presentation posted as a handout. To follow along or to utilize for notes, you may want to printout the presentation now. As previously mentioned, today's webcast is the basic publication vocational rehabilitation process. It is being presented by Cheryl Bates-Harris and David Hutt. Cheryl Bates-Harris is a senior disability advocacy specialist for the Training and Advocacy Support Center of NAPAS, where she has over 20 years experience and expertise working with people with disabilities. Cheryl has an in-depth knowledge of cross-disability issues and continues to focus on employment issues of people with disabilities, including vocational rehab, Social Security, return to work, TANF and other work programs that impact people with disabilities, including Department of Labor One Stops. She has developed a complete knowledge and understanding of social security programs and work incentives beginning with the Social Security alternate participant program for which she was responsible for the development of the SSA protection and advocacy dispute resolution project. And later, the development of the protection and advocacy for beneficiaries of Social Security. In addition, she has lead responsibilities for technical assistance and training to the Client Assistance Program, CAP, nationwide. Since the passage of the Ticket to Work and work incentive improvement act, she has conducted national trainings on T-W-W-I-I-A, TWWIIA, and vocational rehabilitation services and is considered a leading expert on the intersection issues of the Ticket to Work with state vocational rehab services. She was an invited participant in the TW and IA2003 summit and was appointed in September 2004 by President Bush to the Ticket to Work and work incentives advisory panel. Cheryl currently co-chairs the CCD work incentives implementation task force and CCD employment and training task force and is an active member of the CCD Social Security task force. She continues to conduct numerous training programs and provides ongoing training and technical assistance to the PNA/CAP network on employment issues that impact people with disabilities. David Hutt, a disability advocacy specialist, at NDRN is responsible for coordinating training and technical assistance for the Client Assistance Program. David is a former staff attorney at Legal Services of Central New York and successfully negotiated and litigated cases involving vocational rehabilitation, Medicaid, consumer debt, accessibility and employment discrimination. He also advised clients on various return to work issues such as Social Security benefits -- oh, benefits planning, the Ticket to Work program, self-advocacy with the New York State VR agency and conducts training programs on employment law and the Ticket to Work program. David earned a BA from Le Moyne College in Syracuse, New York and holds a J. D. and Ph.D. from the State University in New York at Buffalo. And with that, Cheryl and David, I turn the webcast over to you. >> CHERYL: Thank you very much. I apologize for the long introduction, especially on my part, and I want to clarify that NAPAS, the National Association of Protection and Advocacy Systems and NDRN, the National Disability Rights Network are the same agency. Apparently I forgot to update that in my bio and we are now going by the new name. So having said that, we're going to go right into the presentation starting with slide No. 2. This program is intended to be an overview of the vocational rehabilitation agency and the VR agencies really operate under a process. So we're going to kind of walk you through the process. But first I'm going to give you little bit of background information. Although vocational rehab services have been around for a long time, the VR program that we know today was the result of a significant overhaul in 1973 to The Rehabilitation Act. So when we refer to The Rehabilitation Act as amended, what we're basically referring to at this point is the 1973 amendments and those since then. In that piece of legislation, on the preamble includes congressional findings that indicate that work is valuable for everybody. That individuals with disabilities experience staggering levels of unemployment and that individuals with disabilities have demonstrated the ability to achieve gainful employment. And furthermore, that the provision of workforce investment activities and VR can enable individuals with disabilities to pursue meaningful careers. So as a result of this, in each state and territory as referenced on slide No. 3 has a public VR system, which is designed to assess plans, develop and provide VR services to individuals with disabilities. These services should be consistent with the individual's strengths, resources, priorities, concerns, abilities, capabilities, interests and informed choice. What this really means is that the services are supposed to be individualized to meet the individualized needs of the individual. Furthermore, the Rehab Act states as stated in slide No. 4 that it is the policy of the United States that individuals with disabilities be provided the opportunities to obtain gainful employment in integrated settings. Specifically, it says that the goals of the nation include equality of opportunity, full inclusion and integration into society. And it goes on to say -- the Rehab Act goes on to say that individuals are to be active and full partners in the VR process making meaningful and informed choices. So how does one become involved with this state VR agency? The first step is obviously to make a referral, which we'll talk about on slide No. 5. A referral is defined as any individual who has applied for or been referred to the VR agency by letter, by telephone, by direct contact or by any other means and for whom some minimal information has been furnished. This information necessarily needs to include the name and address of the individual, a statement of disability, the age and sex of the individual, the date of the referral and the source of referral, if there is one. Oftentimes, individuals are able to self-refer to VR and oftentimes I think those can tend to be the more motivated individuals. It is also possible that if they are involved with any other community service organization or hospital or something like that, that perhaps they have a mechanism in place for referral. So once an individual has been referred for services, VR is actually an eligibility-based program so there needs to be an application for services. Going on to slide No. 6, once the referred individual actually signs a document requesting vocational rehabilitation services, the person moves into an applicant status. It is important to note that there is no residency requirement for VR services. An individual does not have to have lived in the state for any period of time and they only have to be present in the state and that once an application for services is placed, an eligibility determination must be made within 60 days unless there are usual or unforeseen circumstances that would prevent that from happening. I think this is a good point to kind of stop and ask if there are any questions up to that point. >> TANJAUNA: Not at this time. >> DAVID: Okay, as Cheryl said, the Rehab Act creates a process. It's VR systems need to follow the state VR agencies need to follow. And after the individual applies for services, the VR agency needs to assess whether or not the individual is eligible for services. VR is not an entitlement system and before that person must be determined eligible for services. So on slide 7 we have outlined basically the three criteria that the VR agency needs to look at in order to determine whether an individual is initially eligible for VR services. So the first criteria is the individual has to have a physical or mental impairment which is a substantial impediment to employment. And there are really two key parts to this: The physical and mental impairment is the first part of criteria one, and the second key part is the substantial impediment to employment. Now I'll try to give you a couple of examples for what a substantial impediment means. It could be wide ranging. These examples are just to illustrate. There are other possibilities that could be substantial impediments. For an example, an individual may have an accident, have a traumatic brain injury and develop some sort of cognitive problem that would require that person to go into a new field. They may have had one job and because of the traumatic brain injury need a new job. That traumatic brain injury is a physical impairment that substantially impedes that individual's ability to go to work. An individual who uses a wheelchair for mobility might have some mobility issues getting to and from work that might require a van modification. So that could be another impediment to mobility, maybe an impediment to that individual getting employment. And then other physical or mental situations or problems could cause impediments such as someone who has a visual impairment may need some sort of assistive technology either to obtain training to go to work or actually on the job. So those are just some examples of what substantial impediment to employment is. Let me give you an example of what would not be considered a substantial impediment. Let's say an individual has a hearing impairment and has been working for 20 years as an attorney, decides they no longer want to be an attorney but wants to be an economist. That's a career change. The disability is not a substantial impediment to that individual becoming a chemist so they would not meet the first criteria. That's a simple career change that does not make that person eligible for VR services. That's the first criteria. The second criteria for eligibility is the individual will need vocational rehabilitation services to prepare for, secure, retain or regain employment. So again, it's not only just getting the employment, it's actually possibly preparing for such employment, and keep in mind that VR services, unlike other services in the rehabilitation act, they're not just for independent living. An individual may want van modifications so they're able to sort of get around the community better, however, if it's not related to the individual's employment, those aren't services to secure, regain, prepare or retain employment. So just keep in mind it's not just simply independent living. There has to be a tie-in to that individual becoming employed. Then finally, the third criteria is the individual must be able to benefit from vocational rehabilitation services. This is presumed, okay, and I'll talk about that in a little bit later about what the presumption means, but essentially if the individual meets the first two cry year ya, The Rehabilitation Act requires the agency they can benefit from being provided vocational rehabilitation services, okay? Slide 8, the next slide, for folks who are receiving Social Security disability income, SSDI, or supplemental security income, SSI, there is a special criteria for them. First of all, the SSDI or SSI recipient is presumed to have a physical or mental impairment which is a substantial impediment to employment. So SSDI and SSI individual automatically are presumed to meet criteria one. They are also presumed to meet criteria two that they need vocational rehabilitation services to prepare, secure, retain or regain employment. So the SSDI and SSI beneficiaries have it a little easier because they are presumed one and two and three as we said before are already -- presumed they can benefit from services. That's already in the law. So for those folks, what they have to do is essentially intend to want to become employed. They want an employment outcome. So in SSDI and SSI recipient who signs an application for services, that's considered their intent that they want to go to work and therefore the presumptions will go into effect so it's a little easier for them. Now I think as Cheryl said the determination process of eligibility must happen within 60 days in the application. Now, in certain states, if we go to slide No. 9, certain states have implemented what's known as an order of selection. Okay, this currently applies to about 32 states. The Rehabilitation Act allowed the state VR agency which cannot provide the full range of VR services to eligible individuals to essentially establish an order of selection or an order of priority. Okay? So if the state can't afford to supply individuals with all eligible individuals with services they can stab this order of priority. The order of priority that the state develops must be based on the severity of the individual's disability, and it must essentially give priority to services to those who are most significantly disabled. So the folks who defined as most significantly disabled are provided VR services before other individuals. If we go to slide 10, the order of selection developed by the states must follow generally some federal requirements that we won't get into in too detail, but we have to follow the general federal requirements that specify different categories of individuals and who is going to be served first and who is going to be served second and so on based on these categories. They need to define these categories and definitions with the help of their state rehabilitation council. Every state has what's known as a state rehabilitation council or SRC and they have to provide the state VR agency input into creating these order of selections. Okay? Now, the odor the criteria that the VR agencies cannot consider -- and that's listed on slide 10 -- they can't looks at types of disabilities. So they can't single out specific disabilities in the order of selection. They can't base the categories on how much it's going to cost to provide the VR services or the type of services the individuals might need. Individual characteristics such as age, race, national origin, those cannot play into the order of selection categories. They can't, you know, base it on the type of employment. They can't say we're only going to help people who want white collar jobs as opposed to blue collar jobs. They can't base it on the types of employment individuals might seek and then finally the main do not or cannot in terms of the order of selection is they cannot look at the individual's family income. That cannot be consideration when they develop these categories. Okay? So those are essentially the order of selection. >> CHERYL: Before you move on I want to clarify something that just occurred to me might not be clear, and that's the fact that an individual could be eligible for VR services, but their disability may not be significant enough to qualify for services if the state is on an order of selection. So you can be eligible, but put on a waiting list. >> DAVID: Now if we go to slide 11, we look at the determination of -- as I said before, under criteria 3 and who is eligible for services, it's presumed that someone who meets criteria one and two can benefit from VR services, okay? Now, the state can overcome the presumption that an individual can benefit from services, and they need to do this by clear and convincing evidence that the individual cannot become employed even if the vocational rehabilitation agency provided VR services, okay? The key language there is clear and convincing evidence is what the state agency must show. Okay, if we go to slide No. 12, in order to determine this clear and convincing evidence, there is several -- well there is one step a state VR agency must follow. They have to conduct a realistic trial work experience with the individual and this trial work experience has to assess the individual's abilities, capabilities and capacities to work in a realistic setting. And this is determined, okay, if VR provides these services, could this person go to work in this trial work experience to make that determination. Now in some cases the trial work experience for whatever reason -- we won't get into all the details today -- is not willing to work or is determined that the individual can benefit from services, the VR agency can conduct an extended evaluation to see if the individual can benefit from VR services, and this is basically providing the services and seeing if the individual is going to over a longer term benefit from these services and be able to get employed. So those are the two techniques that the VR agency needs to use. If it's clear and convincing based on these tests that the individual is not going to be able to become employed with the help of VR services, then te can find the individual ineligible and they won't be able the to get the VR services. That's essentially the process that VR needs to follow. Just one more issue in terms of the eligibility process as we're talking about is the VR agency must use to the greatest extent possible data that's already available for the individual. So education records, information -- medical or psychological information that the individual gives to VR agencies, the observations of the VR counselor, those are what VR needs to use in order to make the determination of eligibility. Now, they can get data besides that, but they have to really try to use existing data to make this determination eligibility. Okay? So before we move on to the actual service, I want to stop there and see if there are any questions up to this point especially on the eligibility determinations. >> TANJAUNA: We do have a few questions. The first one is, you said that there is no residency requirement. Can undocumented students qualify for services? >> DAVID: Undocumented residents, right? >> TANJAUNA: Yeah, it says there is no -- you said that there is no residency requirement. Can undocumented students qualify for services? >> CHERYL: I'm not sure quite frankly what you mean by an undocumented student. If we are talking an undocumented alien, I think that that's probably going to be left up to the discretion of the VR agency. Technically there is not a requirement in the Rehab Act that a person has to be a legal immigrant and legally documented in order to qualify for VR services, but I would suspect that the argument the VR agency would use is that if they are not properly documented, then legally they cannot work. So their efforts would be kind of null and void in that there would not be a benefit to the person's employment. This is a question that has come up from time to time, but I don't think that we have, you know, a bona fide answer. In most places it's going to rely on the effective advocacy and why the person is undocumented. If it's just that the person's VISA has expired and they are in the process of renewing it, you might have a stronger argument than the person who slipped over the border yesterday and plans to go back next month. >> TANJAUNA: the next questions are not necessarily on eligibility but I'll go ahead and ask it and if you want to discuss it later, you can do how you choose. I have just begun a graduate class in adult learning disabilities. I am interested in how the act treats learning disabilities. It seems there are so many levels and severities of learning disabilities. How does the employer determine how they should accommodate these disabilities? >> CHERYL: Okay, I think there is two different questions in there. The first question is how does the act regard learning disabilities? And very clearly learning disabilities are covered under the Rehab Act and an impairment to -- as an impediment to employment and as a disability. The question about how does an employer accommodate it is really a different question and a lot of that comes down to how and when the individual discloses the disability and what they would ask for in terms of accommodation. Now, there is a lot of printed guidance around that suggests, you know, how to accommodate learning disabilities in the workplace and certainly if someone had a question, I would suggest that they contact the job accommodations network at West Virginia University because those folks are remarkable in terms of, you know, helping people to identify accommodations in various work settings. David? >> DAVID: the question in terms of the employer -- that's going to fall under primarily the Americans with Disabilities Act and possibly a civil rights provision of The Rehabilitation Act that we're not going to talk about today because that's outside of vocational rehabilitation. So when you're dealing with the employer, that's sort of beyond the voc rehab agency's responsibility about, you know, accommodation. Again, that would be an Americans with Disabilities Act employment discrimination matter. >> TANJAUNA: Correct, and I just want to add if the listener has questions on accommodations and employment, they can always call the ADA hotline at 800-949-4232 and get any questions answered on accommodations and employment. okay, the next question asks who oversees independent living centers and makes sure the organizations comply with the Rehab Act? If the answer to this is the SILCs then who oversees the SILCs? If the answer to this is the CAP program, who oversees the state CAP program? And what recourse does an individual with a disability have if they cannot get results from an ILC not hiring or having people with disabilities in leadership roles? >> CHERYL: Boy, that's a good question. All right, first of all, to the question of who oversees the independent living centers? The responsibility for monitoring and oversight of the independent living centers would be the Rehabilitation Services Administration within the office of special education and rehabilitative services in Washington D. C. The SILC is not really an oversight committee or body. It is really, I believe, a coordinating body that is to like coordinate the state plan for independent living services among all of the different independent living centers in the state. If an individual has a problem in accessing services from the independent living center, that certainly does fall within the purview of the Client Assistance Program. However, if the issue is that the independent living center is not hiring or promoting people with disabilities, that again takes it outside of the Rehab Act arena and places it into the employment arena which would -- which would have a different resource. And David, you want to talk about that for a minute? >> DAVID: Yeah, that would be similar to what we talked about last, the Americans with Disabilities Act or the civil rights provision under the Rehab Act. It would not be a services that the CAP could deal with because it wouldn't be dealing with services under the act. >> CHERYL: You could, however, because the independent living centers receive federal dollars, if an individual felt that they were being discriminated against in employment or otherwise discriminated against because of disability, they could file a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights within the Department of Education as well as pursuing it through an employment discrimination case. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. This comment is going back to the undocumented student I believe. Yes, the undocumented student and the person came back and said, yes, I was referring to students that are not in the country legally when asking about residency requirements. So that's what they were talking about. So then the answer that you provided then would be sufficient, correct? >> CHERYL: Yes, it wouldn't change. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. The next question is who has oversight to determine if the state VR agency has established clear and convincing evidence to deny eligibility. >> DAVID: We're going to talk a little later about the appeals process and some of the process we'll talk about later, but essentially if the VR agency makes that determination, you challenge that. And we'll go through how to challenge. They have to do it in writing and provide you the evidence and the basis of why they are saying there is clear and convincing evidence. So a little later we'll tell you how to do that process for the ineligibility. >> TANJAUNA: We have two more questions and actually one question has two parts. Will money in a college fund under the name of the VR applicant affect eligibility for services? And the second part to that is how would a state become eligible to use an order of selection? >> CHERYL: Okay, the question about money in a college fund -- I'm going to hold that for a minute because we're going to talk about financial needs testing and some other special criteria in terms of VR services, but I promise I will answer that question in a few minutes. With regard to the question on order of selection, a state who does not -- all of the states get basically a formula grant award based on the demographics and population of their state for their VR services program. The assumption is that all eligible applicants and/or clients in that state will be able to receive services with that money. When a state agency starts to either restrict services based on cost or they run out of money or they close intakes because they have no more money to provide services, then those are the red flags that indicate that a state really does need to go on to an order of selection. And the order of selection, although required by federal law when they are unable to provide services to everybody, how the state defines the order of selection is left up to a state by state decision. But there is kind of a formula that the feds look at and that the VR agency administrator should look at to decide whether in fact they really are providing all the required services to all of their applicants or applicants and clients, and if they are not, then the state seriously needs to go on to an order of selection. And although I know I'm not supposed to grandstand or get on a soap box, I firmly believe that any state agency that is not on an order of selection is probably not meeting the letter or intent of the law. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. The last question that we have is what responsibilities does state VR programs have to work with other support systems in a state to ensure adequate personal assistance services programs exist? And if inadequate services exist, are they responsible for supplements PAS programs? >> CHERYL: Well, I think the question there is it is always a good idea for states to be coordinating and collaborating with other agencies, but those state VR agency itself is only responsible for paying for like personal assistant services when it's necessary for someone to participate in a state vocational rehabilitation plan. For instance, let's say that an individual goes to college and they would normally get their personal assistant services paid through Medicaid from a local agency, it would not be inappropriate for the VR agency to pick up those personal assistant services if the person needed to relocate and live in a different part of the state. I'm sorry, I've forgotten the second part of that question. >> TANJAUNA: Let's see, the second is, and if inadequate services exist, are they responsible for supplementing PAS programs? >> CHERYL: I think to the extent that the individual needs supplemental services, the answer would be yes, because it would be required to meet the individual's needs. >> DAVID: the proviso there would have to be related to employment. VR again is services the individual needs, then is it related to employment. VR will not be responsible for picking up any gap. >> CHERYL: That's a little sticky area because it really -- David is right. It really -- the additional services would have to support the individual's plan for employment and not just be something that would be needed regardless and the state -- it's not available in the state currently. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. That's all the questions that we have for now, but to all the listeners out there, if you still have questions on determination of eligibility, please go ahead and E-mail those and we will ask them at a later time. Until then, I'm going to turn it back over to you guys. >> DAVID: Okay. Thank you. Well, so far we've gone through -- in terms of the process, how the individual applies for services, VR goes to the assessments and determines if the individual is eligible or ineligible for VR services. So once the person gets through the eligibility determination, the next major step is the development of what's known as an individualized plan for employment. Now, this document is real critical. Essentially it outlines what the goal -- the employment goal is for the individual and the plan for VR services are in order for that individual to reach that employment goal. Right now we're on slide No. 13. The second point there is the IPE is not a contract. So it's not a contract with the VR agency, but it is very important and if there is disputes down the road, this document is going to have very significant weight. So you want to make sure that this IPE is developed properly and has all the important points into it. Going on to slide No. 14, the individualized plan for employment -- these are some of the required components of the IPE. First off is the employment outcome or goal. And this is essentially what does the individual want to do when they are through with their VR services? They want to become -- they want to get a BA to go into counseling. They want to become a truckdriver or work in a warehouse or become an attorney, those kind of things are what the employment goal is and the individual needs to determine what that is. Second major component of the IPE is the services that are going to be required to achieve that goal. What vocational rehabilitation services does that individual need in order to achieve had a goal. Is it assistive technology? Is it a modified computer? Is it training in a whole new field? Is it to get a bachelor's degree? And then second to that is what of those services is VR going to provide? That also has to be in the IPE about what specifically did the VR agency is going to provide concerning the services needed to achieve the goal. Now, both the individual and the VR agency need the agree on that on both one and two. So if there is a dispute over the employment goal, if VR doesn't think the individual can reach that goal, if they think it's beyond what is required under the Rehab Act, there may be some disputes there, but again, the key is that the goal and what services VR is going to provide, it needs to be agreed to by both folks. Okay, slide 15 gives you a little bit better idea what the employment outcome or goal is. It must be based on the unique strengths, resources, priority concerns, abilities, capabilities, interests and informed choice of the individual. VR needs to agree with the individual, but the individual has got to be something they are interested in and they want to do and they have the ability to do. Now, obviously you know there is some things that may be just completely unrealistic that don't fall in with the capabilities and the abilities of the individual. So those have to be taken into consideration, but again, the last bullet point here is that it has to be an individualized informed choice about that employment goal and VR should not be steering folks into a specific program that that individual is not interested in. Okay, as I said before, there is no entitlement to services. So there is going to be discussion about what VR services are going to be required and what they are going to be willing to provide in the IPE. The IPE can be developed by yourself or the VR counselor can assist you. So if the individual is having difficulty working with their VR counselor, the law provides the individual can go outside the VR agency, complete their IPE and bring a draft copy and say this is what I want to do and try to get the VR agency to approve that plan. However, if they are having a good relationship with the counselor they can work together to try to develop what the IPE is going to be. Okay, slide No. 16, a little bit more about the employment outcome. In some cases, the individual will go to VR and really don't know what they want to do. Okay? Now, under the Rehab Act, the VR agency must conduct an assessment. So they must help the person determine what their employment goal should be. And you know, basically try to find out what this individual is interested in, what their strengths are and do some vocational testing, where their skills lie and those kind of things in order for the person to help develop their employment goals. So VR shouldn't be just saying you don't know what you want to do, come back when you decide. They should be helping that individual explore what their possibilities are and what that employment goal might be. Okay, on slide 17, the next slide, just a little bit more information on the IPE. It must be provided in the native language or mode of communication of the individual. So if the individual's native language is Spanish, it should be this Spanish. If they have a visual impairment and need it in Braille, it should be in Braille, those kind of things. Once the IPE is signed by both individuals, it needs to be reviewed on an annual basis by both the individual and a qualified rehabilitation counselor. This should not just be a paper review. The individual should be -- you know, there should be a discussion between the counselor and the individual about how the things are going on the IPE. It can be a amended if the person decides their goal is unrealistic, they are discuss with VR to amend the goal. This routinely happens where additional services made be needed and the IPE will be a amended to those additional services. Again though like the IPE, there has to be agreement on both of the parties and both of them have to sign the amended IPE. Okay, so that's the application process, the eligibility process and now the development of the IPE which as I said is very important that this document gets done correctly in order to prevent problems down the road. I guess I'll stop there and see if there are any additional questions at this point. >> TANJAUNA: We do have a couple of questions. The first one asks, what type of VR services could be included for a college student with physical disabilities who needs personal care assistance while residing at college? Would tuition or part of tuition as well as payment for personal care assistance be included? >> CHERYL: Quite possibly and I'm going to talk about this in a couple of minutes more, but basically when it comes to college training, college -- the actual cost or the actual policy of how college gets paid for will vary from state to state, and I'm going to jump ahead for just a minute to give you language from the law as soon as I find it. There is specific language in the Rehab Act that says the VR agency cannot pay for higher education until maximum efforts have been made to secure grant assistance from other sources. Basically what that means is an individual should apply for a PEL grant and a PEL grant is available to undergraduates based on financial need. So that assistance is available and a person needs to apply for it; but each state because -- each VR agency because they are responsible for managing their funds and administering their program in the most effective manner may have a different policy regarding how they address tuition, fees and books for schools. And, for instance, one state might have a policy that says they will pay a maximum of $3,500 per school year or up to 80 percent of the unmet need. In another state, if you're lucky, the policy might be that they will pay the tuition, fees and books and without question. And so a lot of what will get paid for in college in terms of tuition, fees and books will depend on the written policy that that state has. Now, with regard to ancillary and support services that would be necessary for an individual to participate in the plan, personal assistance services at the college, I would think should be covered. I would also think that in a situation where the person has a physical disability, transportation to and from the college, whether it be once at the beginning of the semester and once at the end or whether it be daily if the person is living at home, transportation would be a legitimate cost. It very, very much depends on the individual situation, I'm afraid, and it very much depends on the individual policies of the state. And my suggestion would be that if a person has a question about that, that they direct that question to their local Client Assistance Program who can best respond based on their state knowledge. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. The next question actually has two questions. On VR services for employees with disabilities who need VR services for job retention, what is the actual priority for a VR agency to provide job retention related services? And then the second part is do VR agencies have an ongoing mandate to help former clients to retain their jobs through more training or new adaptive device evaluations? >> CHERYL: the answer to both of those questions could be yes, but the answer is yes only if the employee with the disability makes known to VR or makes a request to VR for services. There is a provision within the Rehab Act called post employment services. One an individual has been placed in a job and is successfully considered to be engaging in employment, the VR agency will typically close the case as a successful closure. Now, that's good because then VR gets the recognition for a job well done; but people's disabilities change and people's work situations change and people with disabilities should not be stuck in the same position for here ever after simply because they have a disability. Within the post employment provision of the Rehab Act, it enables individuals who otherwise have a record with the agency, in other words, they were a previous client, to request additional services specifically to retain or advance in employment. So you can go back to the VR agency and you can ask for additional services. If it's a simple set of services, they can probably be provided under post employment services. If the needs have changed significantly and for instance you now need a significant piece of technology or let's say a van modification, you didn't drive when you first got the job. You're starting to drive now and you might need a van modification. Then that would probably require a new case than having the case reopened and the service provided to an open case; but the answer is yes, it's possible to get both of those. >> TANJAUNA: Okay, we did get in another question. I believe you're going to be talking about it later but let me go ahead and just read what the question is. It asks, what are the appeal rights of a consumer if they disagree with VR in terms of entering an IPE. The consumer wants to work but VR doesn't think that's possible. >> DAVID: Yes, we're going to get into that in a little bit in some detail. >> TANJAUNA: Okay, great. Back to you guys. >> CHERYL: Okay. I'm going to start with slide No. 17 and talking about what services can the VR agency pay for. And basically within The Rehabilitation Act there is a laundry list of eligible services that VR can pay for, but in a nutshell, it's any service necessary to assist the individual in preparing for, securing, retaining or regaining an employment outcome that is consistent with the strengths, resources, priorities, concerns, abilities, capabilities, interests and informed choice of the individual. You're probably getting a little tired of that jargon because we've said it several times, but that really is the whole premise of the Rehab Act. Services have to be individualized and they have to help the person in terms of an employment that is consistent with what the individual is capable of doing and what the individual wants to do. Now, within each VR agency, and I kind of mentioned this a minute ago, although the federal -- The Rehabilitation Act on the federal level sets the parameters for the scope and type of services that can be provided. The VR agencies are responsible for actually managing their money and managing their program and making sure that whatever they do, they do on a consistent basis. And that they do it on a statewide basis. So states will adopt state policies that will kind of become their procedures for the state. And one of the things that is absolutely required is that VR services have to be authorized. David talked a lot about the IPE development and that you discuss the scope of services that are to be provided; but just because the VR agency has agreed to say send David for an eye evaluation and purchase of glasses if it's necessary and to pay for a trial semester of college, that does not mean that David leaves the VR office, goes to the nearest sight center, goes in and has his eyes checked and buys a pair of glasses and says send the bill to VR. There are established procedures for that and that VR has to actually authorize the service to an approved vendor. So let's talk about some specific services. Clearly the first thing would be any assessments that are needed to determine eligibility and need. Now, although we would assume that people with disabilities when they go to VR probably have a good idea of what their disability is. It would not surprise me to find out that there are a lot of people who go to the vocational rehabilitation agency just as they go to the Social Security Administration with a collection of aches and pains and without affirm diagnosis of anything. So it's possible that VR could pay for the diagnostics that are necessary to actually get a medical evaluation done. Once the eligibility is determined and we know what the disability is, the VR counselor's job is to provide counseling and guidance and perhaps job placement. Not every individual with a disability may need an array of services. Some of them just may need jobs and job placement may be more appropriate for some populations than others. VR can pay for training, purchase of tools and materials and for books. We talked a little bit about this. I still haven't gotten to the question on money on a VR fund but that's going to come up a little bit later. Maintenance costs are something that VR can pay for. Now, when we're talking about maintenance costs, we're talking about expenses that would be incurred by an individual with a disability who is participating in a plan of services or participating in an evaluation for eligibility of services. So, for instance, and I'm going to pick on David because he's on the other side of the room from me or the other side of the table. If David came to the VR agency and we said, you know, David, I understand you have aches and pains, but we need to send you to this hospital, this doctor and this place in order to further -- to better understand what your disabling condition is. The cost of David getting to those places would be a legitimate maintenance cost because he may not have the money to otherwise pay for the transportation. If David is going to college or if David wants to go to college and he is currently living at home but the college that best meets his needs is a residential setting on the other side of town, then the room and board for him to participate in the college plan would be appropriate. So maintenance, again, goes to support the participation of the individual in their plan for services. It does not, as a general rule, include what would normally be living expenses. I'm going to slide No. 20 right now which talks about the diagnosis and treatment of physical or mental impairments to reduce or eliminate the impediments to employment. So some of the additional services that VR could pay for could be corrective surgery for some kind of medical condition. The ones that quickly come to mind for me is correction of cataracts. A cataract surgery and we see a number of weight reduction surgeries across the country. They could also pay for any kind of therapeutic or therapy treatment such as physical therapy. Prosthetic and orthotic devices so if someone was missing a limb and needed an artificial limb or some kind of strength or support, those could be covered. Eyeglasses and visual services, as well as diagnosis and treatment for mental and emotional disorders. Moving on to 21, we'll add transportation to that list of services. And again, that could include travel training for an individual who may be using a public transportation system. It could be a vehicle modification, and the law does allow for the purchase of vehicles, but I say that with a caveat in that most states have policies that say they do not purchase vehicles. Personal assistance services are certainly an appropriate VR service as well as interpreter services, readers, rehabilitation teaching and orientation and mobility services for people who have -- who need those services due to their impairment. For people who are getting ready to go to work, the VR service could include occupational licenses, tools, equipment as well as initial stocks and supplies for small business. Moving on to the next page, 22, it talks about technical assistance for self-employment. And I guess I want to call attention to the fact that one of the resources that is posted on the web is an RSA technical assistance circular No. 0002 that was issued in July of 2000. And it basically talks about the fact that in the 1998 amendments to the Rehab Act, there was emphasis placed on self-employment, telecommuting and establishing a small business as employment outcomes. So we just posted that as a resource if people are interested in looking at it. Returning to slide 22, we have rehabilitation technology which could be the provision of assistive technology as well as instruction on the use and maintenance of any kind of technology that the individual may need. There is also transition services for students with disabilities. This is a really, really big area in both special education as well as in the Rehab Act and there are very clear provisions regarding those services. Supported employment is also a service that can be provided. And supported employment is a discrete service. Supported employment is not an outcome. And although I don't want to go into a lot of detail and differentiate that, a lot of times when I would see IPE's developed, the goal would be supported employment. And sup ported employment is not a job goal. Supported employment is a means to supporting the individual in a chosen job goal. So I want to make that distinction. There is also a provision within the Rehab Act that allows for the VR agency to provide services to family members to assist a person with a disability achieve an employment outcome. And finally, the last thing, and we've talked a little bit about this is the post employment services that would be necessary for an individual to retain, regain, or advance in employment. And I want to emphasize again that the only place in the rehabilitation act that talks about VR advancing in employment is in the provisions of post employment. There is a couple of other general caveats to the way VR provides services, and I want to talk about these briefly before we move on. Generally, VR pays for services unless the state has chosen to adopt a financial needs criteria. And what a financial needs test does is it basically will look at the access and resources that an individual brings to the table and there could be, based on the state policy, an expectation that the individual would contribute something towards the cost of services. Now, as I indicated, this is a state option. This is not an option that every state has adopted, but you need to be aware of what the requirements are in your state and that if they establish a financial needs test, it must be in a written policy, and it must identify the specific services that will be subject to the financial needs test. Now, there is one exception to this, and the exception is that the '98 amendments to the Rehab Act state that an individual who is on SSI or SSDI is presumed basically to be poor and they are therefore exempt from any financial participation in the cost of plans. So that's something that is important to remember. There is another funny little clause in The Rehabilitation Act that is called comparable services and benefits. And what this basically means is that VR is the payer of last resort. That if there is some other state, federal or local agency that is available to provide that service, that VR would look to that entity to provide the service first and that they would pay for the service only if the other agency refused to or the other service is not available. Basically, what that means in some very common examples. If an individual comes to the VR agency and they have some kind of health insurance and they need some kind of medical treatment, the health insurance that exists would be considered a comparable service and benefit. So VR would ask that that service be paid for first by the health insurance carrier and then when either the limit -- if there is a limit on how much they'll pay for that type of service, VR would pay the difference. Another classic example would be the personal assistant services. Those are typically paid for through the Medicaid or the Medicaid waiver program. If an individual is already -- already eligible for that program, the expectation would be that that service continue while they are participating in the VR program and VR would pick up any additional support that was needed. Another very, very common example is mental health counseling. VR would look to the community mental health centers to provide counseling to the individuals with psychiatric disabilities or those kinds of disorders before they would pay for a private psychiatrist or psychologist. There is a couple of exceptions to when the VR agency must look for comparable services and benefits. And basically if the search for these benefits would interrupt or delay progress toward achieving an employment outcome, if a job placement would be lost or if someone is at extreme medical risk, then the search for comparable services and benefits is basically thrown out the window and VR goes ahead and provides those services. The last piece that I wanted to mention -- and this will take us back to the question about money in the college fund -- is that there is specific language in the rehabilitation act that talks about maximum efforts to secure grant assistance from other sources. So VR, when it comes to college, is looking again to be the payer of last resort. Whether or not an individual has money in a college fund and whether or not that -- that would not affect their eligibility for VR services, but it might make a difference to the VR agency in terms of financial participation, depending on their state policy and their state plan. As a general rule, it is only free grants such as the Pell grants available that is considered -- what's the word I'm looking? A Pell grant is considered a comparable benefit or service, but any scholarships that are obtained based on merit would not be required to be used for the VR, for tuition or to pay for the cost of services for college. I may not have said that very clearly, so let's see if we have other questions. >> TANJAUNA: Okay, we do have a few questions. The first one is, is there a definition for a qualified rehabilitation counselor? We're finding the majority of the counselors working for our VR agency do not have an educational background in rehabilitation counseling and have no experience in the field whatsoever. >> CHERYL: the answer to that question is there absolutely, positively is a definition for a qualified rehab counselor and basically going back to the '92 amendments to The Rehabilitation Act, language was added -- and I'm trying to get the exact definition here. So I apologize for the flipping through papers. But basically a qualified rehab counselor is -- and I'm going to read from the language of the law. It says is a counselor that is trained and prepared in accordance with state policies and procedures described in section 101 A. 7 B. which is not going to be helpful to you. Basically the definition based on the '92 amendment says that the minimum standard for licensure or accreditation in the state is what is -- is how a qualified rehab counselor is defined. And on a national level, that means that at a minimum, it's a CRC certification. CRC certification. This issue -- and this issue becomes important because there are certain things that can only be done by a qualified rehab counselor. Only a qualified rehab counselor can make a determination of eligibility for a VR client and only a qualified rehab counselor can sign an and agree to an individual plan of employment. Now, the issue that somebody said where they are finding that most of the counselors in the state do not have a masters degree is not an uncommon situation. However, there is -- each state is supposed to have a comprehensive plan of personnel development or CSPD, comprehensive system of personal development which means that they will work with those counselors and basically bring those counselors up to the level of certification and qualification that's required. Now, that exists. Whether or not states are taking advantage of it is another question. >> TANJAUNA: Okay, the next question is, what is the definition of abilities versus capabilities? >> CHERYL: That's a very good question. David and I are looks at each other so I'm going to let David fumble with this. >> DAVID: When I read the regulations I had the same question in my head. There is really no -- there is no definition in the act or the regulations of capabilities or abilities. So I think it's a little bit superfluous, but it boils down to what are the skills the individual has. You know, what do they -- are they good in certain areas and not other areas? What is their cognitive abilities? What is the restrictions in terms of any physical limitations, those kinds of things are essentially what the definition in reality boils down to. >> CHERYL: Next question. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. The next question, what are the responsibilities of VR? What are the responsibilities of the consumer? >> CHERYL: You know, I think the answer to that is that both the responsibilities of the VR are obviously for the VR counselor to do their job, to maintain -- to establish and maintain a relationship with the clients that they are working with, to provide them with the guidance and counseling that they may need in order to make decisions about career choices, to help identify to them the options for services that they may need; and basically to work with the individual in moving that person forward in their vocational plan and their vocational goal. I think the responsibilities of the client is clearly to be a full participant in the process and that includes communicating with the VR counselor, notifying the counselor of any problems or situations that arise, you know, if something happens in their personal life that they are simply not able to continue, let's say in a school plan or they temporarily have to suspend services, then they have a responsibility to notify the VR counselor of the change in their situation so that changes can be made accordingly. I think the real issue is like a full partnership with communication back and forth. It should not be a once a year -- we get together to sign a paper. That there really does need to be involvement and commitment on the part of both people. So if, you know, the counselor agrees and develops a plan, the individual needs to make an equal commitment to follow through with that plan and not simply decide the week before school starts that they have forgotten to make arrangements for their dogs. Or they forgot the tell somebody and they can't leave town right now. Those kinds of things. David, do you want to add? >> DAVID: Some states will have policies that they include in their IPE saying your responsibility as a consumer is to keep the VR counselor informed of changes, let them now how you're doing, especially folks that go to school. They may say provide the grades at the end of the semester so we know that you're passing and you're continuing. I think the general responsibility on the consumer's part as Cheryl says is to keep the individual VR counselor informed of what's going on of significant changes that are going to affect their ability to complete the plan and not all states -- I think it's an unwritten rule. You have to try to cooperate with a VR counselor. We see a lot of problems occur when the consumer -- the VR things the consumer is uncooperative. So you want to be -- obviously you want to go to employment, you want to treat it as a good employment professional conduct is be cooperative if VR asks you things that are reasonable, respond to that. If you think it's unreasonable, well then call your Client Assistance Program and they can help you determine whether it's a reasonable request and you want to be cooperative and that can avoid a lot of problems in getting through the process. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. The next is do VR workers have quotas? And why aren't more folks with disabilities employed by VR? >> DAVID: in terms of quotas, no. It's basically is the individual eligible? Now, obviously VR is wanting to close cases because they are getting funding from the federal government and they have you know outcomes they are supposed to be producing with the federal money. They want to get folks out and in employment. You know, it's not a quota, but it is something that is in the back of the VR agency's mind. Boy, in terms of employing people with disabilities, we have to ask the VR agencies about that question. >> CHERYL: and actually VR agencies do have an affirmative action requirement to hire people with disabilities. Why that doesn't happen, I don't know. It could be that people aren't applying or it could be that they're not qualified. I don't know, but there is an affirmative action provision within the law. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. The next one says Hi Cheryl and David. I'm enjoying the webcast. I have a case where the VR agency provided oral notice of termination of services listed in the IPE six months before the IPE was up for review. This was upheld by the hearing officer after a fair hearing. If the IPE is a nonbinding agreement, what weight does it have? >> DAVID: the process -- real quickly, it does hold weight because the hearing officer -- and it depends on the hearing officer unfortunately. You know, some hearing officers will look at that very closely and if it's in there, you know, they will say, okay, this is what the goal is and this should have been provided to reach that goal. Now, the question said something about oral notice, I think? >> TANJAUNA: Yes. Let's see, it says we had a case where the VR agency provided oral notice of termination of services listed in the IPE six months before the IPE was up for review. >> DAVID: Okay. Termination of services -- that should have been clearly in writing. That's required. That's a due process notice. I'll touch upon that in a little bit. So I'm a little concerned about that because VR -- if they're going to end service e if they're going to close an individual's case, they have to put it in writing and give the reason why because that's what you would challenge in a hearing. So if that person wants to E-mail me directly, I'd like to know a little bit more about what happened because a lot of these torch out very technical legal points, but the fact that it wasn't in writing is a concern. Now, you know, in terms of the hearing -- >> CHERYL: It may not go to a hearing. >> DAVID: at any point in the appeal process if the individual doesn't -- if the evidence isn't there to support what the person is looking to get, you know, that could be the reason the decision came down that way, but it's difficult for me to completely assess it without all the facts. If that person wants to E-mail thee I think that's probably the better way to handle that question. >> CHERYL: but I think the other part to that answer is that oral notice is insufficient, but at the same time, I would not risk ignoring it and pretending that it didn't happen. So certainly any decision is appealable and once an individual appeals the decision, the services that are in the plan must remain in place and David is going to talk about that in just a minute. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. We have a couple more questions. The next one asks, could you review the part where VR is to pay for mental health needs for a client? And in what way could the VR agency assist the family of the client? >> CHERYL: Well, you know a lot of times with individuals with psychiatric disabilities, the VR counselor will require that the individual continue to either take their medication and/or engage in their therapeutic relationship with a mental health counselor. Unfortunately, most of the time VR is going to look to do that through like I said the existing community services that are available through like the community mental health center. But there are situations where perhaps the community mental health service is not meeting the needs and on a time limited basis VR could pay for some private individual psychotherapy and/or medication. So I think that kind of answers that part. The part about services to family members has always been a little bit mushy in my mind because I have to tell you that in the 16 years that I've been involved with the CAP program, I've never had this raised as an issue where it's been denied; but I think the kinds of things they are talking about -- if you have an individual perhaps who is in supported employment or perhaps has a developmental disability or perhaps uses a wheelchair for mobility and the person is either involved in a training program or they have a job, chances are they're going to rely on mom or dad or big brother or their sister to transport them. So the services to the family could be maintenance in terms of the transportation or it could be -- I actually heard of a situation in Oklahoma where a young -- a young guy, a person who was ten years old and who was a genius, basically, was doing a summer employment in a chemical engineering lab and his parents had no way to transport him. So they actually did a van modification for the family in order to enable the family to transport him. So those are the kinds of things. It would be where you're relying on the natural supports, but that family may need a service in order to provide that natural support. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. We've actually had several more questions come in just while you guys were answering that question. So do you guys want to go ahead and pushing ahead -- >> CHERYL: We would be happy to answer questions individually later. >> TANJAUNA: So I'll go ahead and give it back to you. >> DAVID: We might have a little time at the end. Okay, going on to slide No. 26, just a couple of sort of miscellaneous points before we get into the appeals process. The employment outcome which you talked about that needs to be in the IPE, the emphasis that VR needs to place is on integrated employment, not what's known as not integrated or sheltered employment. Now, the individual may decide they want sheltered employments, and in which case VR would need to refer that individual to the local nonintegrated sheltered workshop, not integrated employer. They need to initiate what's known as extended employment which means they have to annually look at that individual and then within two years after they go into this extended employment at the sheltered workshop, reevaluate whether the individual can get into integrated employment. You know, we obviously encourage folks to get into integrated employment and they may go in with the idea that they want to work in a shelter workshop. However, the VR counselor should be exploring every possibility to get that individual into integrated employment and not to coerce them, but to basically make the suggestion and show the person how they could possibly work in an integrated setting. Now, again, if the individual chooses not to, that is their option, but that's sort of the situation in terms of integrated versus not integrated employment. Okay? Next slide on slide 27, now we get into -- I sort of mentioned this briefly before -- about changes. Things obviously can change down the road. You know, some folks may need VR services for only several months. Some people may be five, six, seven, eight years, working with the VR system so obviously the IPE can be changed to include additional VR services. Any changes have to be agreed on with VR and the individual like we talked about before. Okay, on slide 28 now, you know, changes can't be resolved through IPE or some problems or disagreements come up with VR, now we get into what the resolution procedure is for problems that develop. Now, disagreements with the VR agency, again, we're on slide 28, can occur over the termination if the person is not eligible for services, the specific order of selection category, if you're one of the 32 states operating under order of selection, and you're at a very high so you're on a waiting list, you can possibly dispute that selection category. Your employment outcome, if you want to do employment goal X and VR says, no, they want you to do Y, that can go through the appeals process. If you need some sort of assistive technology, VR disagrees with you, that can go through the appeals process. You know, we had the question about closure of a VR case. If they terminate services or closes a case inappropriately, that's another disagreement that can go through the appeals process and there is a lot of issues that can go through on that. Slide 29, there is at least two free legal services that are available or advocacy services that are available. One is the Client Assistance Program which we talked about. There are 56 of these -- 50 states and six territories have a CAP program and again they can assist you with disagreements with the VR agency. Again, if you're receiving services or you're an applicant for VR services CAP can assist you if there is a problem. And then there is a protection assistance, the PAS program. This is specifically available to folks who are on SSDI or SSI that fair barriers to work and if you're having a disagreement with VR that's obviously a barrier to employment. So they can't represent everybody who is a potential VR eligible individual or applicant, but the SSDI and SSI individual they can assess. The actual process which is on slide 30, okay, you get a decision by the VR agency or they're not doing something you think that they should be such as, you know, they don't agree with your employment goal or they are not going the give you an assistive technology or there is some other disagreement. The first step I would say is call your Client Assistance Program or your PAS program and get their input. The first process that you can sort of employ is sort of inform. The CAP advocate or you alone can go in and talk to your counselor, talk to the counselor's supervisor and say here is the problem and is there a way to re solve it. Negotiation at a very informal level or that individual's supervisor. The next step would be negotiation which is essentially -- pretty much the same, go into the counselor or to the supervisor or to the manager of the VR agency's office. Or you can go into a little bit more of a form ule process called mediation which is essentially an independent mediator will come in, will listen to both sides of the story and will try to suggest a solution and resolve the disagreement. Now, the mediation is nonbinding. Can you agree with it but it's a way to try to facilitate a resolution that's fairly informal and much simpler to achieve. Okay, the first step -- the informal review in the mediation and negotiation, those first two steps are voluntary. You don't have to do them. You can go straight to requesting an administrative hearing. When you do disagree with VR. The administrative hearing is a formal process. There is an administrative hearing officer. You can get representation by either PABSS or another attorney -- >> CHERYL: or a representative of your choosing. >> DAVID: You've got to watch tore time periods. Some states will set a time period when you have to make the request. As Cheryl said that, individual received oral notification. To play it safe they should look at what the time limit would be and get their appeal in within whatever time period the state sets. Once you ask for an administrative hearing, it should occur within 60 days, both parties can agree to extend that, but again, the law requires that the hearing be held within 60 days. And then after the hearing, the decision needs to come down within 30 days. Sometimes that's extended if the parties want to submit additional documents or written statements, that 30 days may slip a little bit if the parties agree. Then the next step after the administrative hearing, if you're unsuccessful in resolving the dispute, you can seek review in Ned rail or state court. They'll essentially look at what the administrative hearing officer considered. You can add additional evidence at the federal or state court level, but again, at that point, I would definitely get an attorney or some other person who is knowledge abling. I wouldn't get an attorney at the point you're going to federal or state court just to make sure you're getting through the process correctly and following all the procedures. The next slide, slide 31, most disagreements are resolved at mediation or the negotiation informal stage. Very few cases go to an administrative hearing. Most of the time -- especially the CAHPS advocates can resolve this through an informal process. And again, specifically with the CAP program, they will try to settle it at the -- at the lowest level possible. Ultimately the individuals want to decide whether or not to accept or reject an agreement. If they don't like what the representative has negotiated, they can reject that and it will continue to go through the process. Just one other caveat in terms of folks who may got to CAHPS or PABSS, essentially they have to look at the merit of the case. You may think you have a great case, but your advocate may not think the merit is there. So they are not obligated to represent every individual and they are going to look at the merits of the case. They don't think you have a good leg to stand on, they may say we're not going to take the case. >> CHERYL: Can I give you a good example of that? When I was a CAP advocate, I cannot tell you how many times people called me and basically said, sue the son of a guns, they've caused me emotional distress by delaying services to me. Well, CAPs and PABSS programs can't sue somebody because you haven't gotten the services that you think you believe. Damages are not available under the act so if your request is somewhere a long that line, the case is not going to have any merit and CAP is not going to help you. They will, however, on the other hand, be happy to work with you and your counselor to get services back on track and to get the relationship back on track. >> DAVID: Just real quickly to wrap up in the last three minutes here is hopefully you won't have to go through the appeals processor the administrative review or any of than things will work out successfully. Once you've completed the plan, if you're in employment for 90 days, you know, VR will essentially do an assessment and close your case as successful employment outcome which is obviously the goal here. It is to get individuals with disabilities to achieve their employment outcome. And at that point, you know, hopefully in the competitive employment and has succeeded through the employment plan. And the final slide just has contact information for us and basically our website that you can look for more information. >> CHERYL: and for the state CAP program. >> DAVID: That lists the CAP programs. So if you need to look to see who to contact for the CAP program in your state that is also on our website. >> CHERYL: I don't know if we have time for any more questions. >> TANJAUNA: I was going to ask if you guys -- we have five or six questions, if you guys have a few minutes -- >> CHERYL: We do. >> TANJAUNA: Let me just go a ahead. The first one asks who is the best to handle a VR appeal? And the second part of that is what happens when folks disagree with VR closing a case? >> DAVID: Okay, let me take the second question first. The VR closing the case -- if you disagree with it, again, the individual should receive written notice. As Cheryl mentioned before, if there is services that are supposed to be provided and awe peel the decision to close the case, those services need to continue to be provided through the appeal process. So if, you know, if you get oral or written, basically get your appeal in by the time that your state requires to request the appeal. At that point, hopefully there will be some negotiation if you have a representative to try to resolve it. If not, if those negotiations don't work and mediation is tried and that doesn't work, then it will likely go to an administrative hearing about whether or not VR should have closed the case or not. The first question again, Tajauna? >> CHERYL: Who should handle the VR? >> DAVID: That's a tricky question. Obviously the CAP program -- those advocates are trained to do these. So that would be the place I would go. PABSS add row indicates are not place to go. I think those are your best options. You can do it on your own but as a first step I would talk to one of those advocates to see what the merit is and hopefully they can help you. >> TANJAUNA: The next one asks, assuming that they are presumed eligible SSDI recipients, if a person states they need to leave a job to attend college and claims that it will constitute a financial hardship, can we give them a monthly maintenance check to compensate for the lost wages? What the maintenance will consist of under the federal Rehab Act, food, shelter and other living expenses -- or what will the maintenance consist of? >> CHERYL: If you're an SSI recipient, the benefit check that you get is to cover food, shelter and clothing and so VR would not in most likelihood supplement that. The fact that you are leaving a job in order to get additional training is great and wonderful for your long term outlook, but it does not place an obligation on the VR agency to sustain your current standard of living. That would have to be a personal choice issue. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. The next one asks part of my IPE is to help me with transportation and book fees and my counselor does not help me with this. What can I do? >> CHERYL: Call CAP. I mean, you know, there might be a number of reasons why they don't and sometimes it's just a lack of communication that counselor may have one set of expectations or understanding and you may have another. And if you can't work it out with your counselor, call CAP and they can help you. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. This next one actually has three parts, and it says for self-employment funding, does the income goal of the business plan have to meet or exceed Social Security levels to be approved? Can this be negotiated? Some people with more severe disabilities can't make more than SGA level or $900 a month or people in rural areas are economically depressed and don't make as much. >> CHERYL: Boy, that is a really, really good question and I'm going to answer it from a gut reaction. There is nothing in the rehabilitation act that states that an individual has to go to work at a level of SGA. So that's clearly an individual's choice and hopefully it's base order their disability and their needs and not a desire to protect their Social Security benefits. But when you start talking about self-employment plans, the whole concept of the self-employment plan being financially viable is something that the VR agency is going to look at because obviously the whole point of self-employment is to increase self-sufficiency and whatever. I would venture to say although it is not written down anywhere, they're going to look very closely at what the plan is going to cost versus how much income it's going to generate and they're probably going to make a determination based on that. They don't want to -- VR is not required to basically support a hobby, and there are many, many small businesses that are basically viewed as being nothing more than hobbies that may make a profit one year and not make another profit for four or five years. So I think that when we're talking self-employment, there is a higher expectation in terms of what's going -- in terms of what's going to be expected and required. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. We have one last question, and then we have someone who E-mailed the subject regarding financial consideration, and I just want to let that individual know that I'm actually going to forward that E-mail to you guys. It's rather lengthy. And then let you guys answer it however you choose. The last question that I have -- and then I'm going to turn I over to you guys for any last closing statements if you have any, but the last question asks what can people with disabilities expect from VR? >> CHERYL: to be treated with respect, to be taken seriously, to be an active participant in the process and to receive the services and support both from the VR counselor, but also if you request to have, you know, family support or some other support for you in the process for that to basically be allowed. And as long as you can serious and committed to an employment outcome and to working and basically improving your quality of life, then VR counselors ought to be on that same page with you and offering you whatever services and supports they can to help you move along that process. >> TANJAUNA: Okay. That actually sounded like a good closing statement. >> CHERYL: I don't know that we have too much more to add -- (Multiple Speakers) >> CHERYL: -- about going through closing statements we've covered them. So I just want to thank you all for participating and Tajauna for you giving us the opportunity to do this and we hope that we've added some clarity to this confusing state that we call vocational rehabilitation. >> TANJAUNA: Absolutely. David, anything you want to say. >> DAVID: No, just quickly, we talked about the whole process and hopefully we simplified it for folks and I'm hoping that most of them can go through it smoothly and not have to deal with the appeals or litigation process and can get through and quickly get to employment. >> TANJAUNA: Perfect. Thank you guys so much. You definitely provided a wonderful and extremely informative webcast. So thank you very much for taking the time to provide this for us. This webcast will be archived on ILRU's website which you can find by visiting www.ilru.org. I would like to acknowledge the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research, NIDRR, who funds your host for today's program, the Disability Law Resource Project. I would also like to thank the in-house staff at ILRU who without their efforts this webcast would not be possible: They include Marj Gordon, Sharon Finney, Dawn Heinsohn, Vinh Nguyen, Maria del Bosque and the technical expertise provided by Rob Dickehuth and our realtime captioner, Marie Bryant. I encourage anyone with questions on the Americans with Disabilities Act or other disability-related questions to call the toll free number at 1-800-949-4232. For more about the webcast or to see the schedule for all upcoming webcasts, please visit www.ilru.org. I also want to take this opportunity to inform the listeners of a transportation training sponsored by the Great Lakes Pacific I. T. Centers in Las Vegas July 11 through 13. It is a three day one of a kind training opportunity with lead trainer Marilyn Golden. For more information about this training, please visit dlrp.org or to register call (713)520-0232, extension 118. Thanks all of you for listening and we hope that you will join us again for our next webcast.