Filing Disability Rights Complaints: Why Should You, How Do You and What Not To Do. Presenter: Aaron McCullough. >> DIEGO: Well, hello and welcome to our webcast, everyone. My name is Diego Demaya and I'm with the Disability Law Resource Project who happens to be the host of your webcast for today. Again, my name is Diego and I will be moderating the webcast for today and welcoming everyone, and once again the topic of today's webcast is Filing Complaints: Why should you, and how should you, and this of course relates to filing complaints concerning disability discrimination or claims thereof alleging disability discrimination charges and so forth. So basically filing complaints that relate to a disability issue or question or problem relating to a disability. And with me today is Aaron McCullough who is going to be hosting the webcast. He will be discussing the topic and answering as many questions as we can get through. But let me remind you of a couple of things concerning participating on the webcast. You can submit questions to the webcast to webcast@ilru.org. You can send an E-mail at webcast@ilru.org, or if you use the RealOne Player to listen to the webcast, you can click at the bottom of the screen of the RealOne Player. There is a submit button or link rather that will open your E-mail and, you know, put the address directly in there for you and all you do is type in your question and then send it off. And that's kind of how that works. Anyhow, if you have any technical difficulties in getting on to the webcast or you fall out of the webcast as it were, feel free to contact us directly at (713)520-0232 and dial 0 for the operator to get technical assistance to get on the webcast. Of course you can use the RealOne Player and the Windows Media Player and that's kind of how that works. And once again, welcome everyone and the host again is Aaron McCullough. He is also with the Disability Law Resource Project. He is a trainer with lots of experience in disability law, training on different topics, including filing complaints with the various -- or through various agencies and has a clear understanding of how disability works in terms of filing complaints and making charges of discrimination. And he's a trainer and also provides consulting services and steek technical assistance here for the disability law resource project. And you can find Aaron's biography on the link where you found the information about the webcast. Please feel free to review that and in the meantime, let me turn this over to Aaron so he can introduce the topic. Aaron... >> AARON: Hey, how is everybody doing today? You can't respond directly, but feel free to send an E-mail. I actually want to extend my thanks to the organization that first proposed this training. We at the Disability Law Resource Project have been doing a training on how and why to file effective complaints of disability discrimination for a few years now. It was at the request of the Coastal Bend Center for Independent Living in Corpus Christi, Texas where we also serve and they were doing an advanced self-advocacy training course, had a number of community activists with disabilities who were going through an advocacy training. And it wasn't so much that those participants who were getting ready to graduate from this program were unaware of how to enforce the ADA and various other federal laws that impact people with disabilities, but they wanted -- they wanted some tools to articulate to other people with disabilities how simple this process is and how vital it is to ensure that the rights of people with disabilities are given full course. So, again, this is something that's totally born out of a very interactive experience with a number of professional advocates and self-advocates at the Coastal Bend Center for Independent Living. So I just wanted to give a shout out to those folks. To I think fairly treat this topic, we're going to broad stroke a lot of law. We're going to be talking about the sweep of civil rights laws for people with disabilities and in the breadth for civil rights protection for people with disabilities and keep in mind that we are painting with a pretty wide bush. The devil can be in the details, but this is -- I think this discussion will lay out sufficiently for the self-advocate enough information to, I think, challenge those people with disabilities to enforce their rights where they feel that they've been stepped on or discriminated against and reduce the anxiety of how complex or complicated -- or extensive that process is, and again, give them some simple practice and guidance on how to both document the nature of the discrimination and to craft a complaint that's likely to get the interest's attention that will be sufficient to get the interest and attention of the enforcement agencies which we're also going to talk about. So that's a lot of information, but I want to say that we're going do everything we can to answer -- you know, answer those questions, but we're already getting some very, very specific questions that show me that people are passionate about this issue and interested in pursuing their rights. We'll do everything that we can to answer these in a very general way in the presentation that respects the format of the presentation, but I assure you, we will get back with you individually if we can't fairly treat the topic that you wish addressed. Keep on sending those E-mails in because we are going to allow plenty of time at the end. Now that I've managed to take six minutes of your precious time, let me get into the content. I think it's also fair that we have to go back into history just a little bit. For some of you who don't really understand what the Americans with Disabilities Act, The Rehabilitation Act and the Fair Housing Act are, I think we really need to discuss the history of civil rights in a very quick manner. The 20th century I think was clearly a period of expanding constitutional protections to a broader group of people. I mean, I think that's defined what happened throughout the entirety of the 20th century. The promise of the constitution to allow women to vote and to ensure protection based on gender, race and national origin. In the efforts of all these folks who gave legislative (Inaudible), we had a set of laws get passed in 1964 called the Civil Rights Act, which again extended constitutional protections against discrimination based on race, gender and national origin. Now, who was missing from that? Well, a lot of folks were missing from that coverage, but people with disabilities were not specifically mentioned in the Civil Rights Act. But those children of the '40's and '50's who grew up in the '60's and '70's and became people with disabilities or were born as people with disabilities had kind of grown up in this expanding climate of civil rights and so that the promise of those late '50's and early '60's efforts to get these broader protections for African Americans, for women, for people of other national origins was continued by any number of great leaders in the disability rights and independent living movements. Some of whom I'm unfortunate enough to work with actually. I won't mention their names specifically, but they already got big enough heads and they are great people. But this effort was, again, brought -- (Inaudible) -- political appeals and lawsuits that came before the passage of the '64 Civil Rights Act or what's kind of thought of as the Civil Rights Act. So these people with disabilities and advocates for people with disabilities threw themselves out of their wheelchairs, they climbed up the capitol steps, they testified in Senate committees and help craft a set of laws that became known as The Rehabilitation Act which guaranteed certain protections for people with disabilities with regards to access -- accessing federal programs and those institutions that are funded through federal programs, primarily secondary programs and colleges and schools. And this law was amended fairly quickly to ensure it was a little more enforceable. But essentially you had the right to access federal facility, federal programs, federal services and those people who received direct federal funding. And again, primarily places of post-secondary public education and public schools themselves. Now, keep in mind before these protections even as recently as the '70's there were schools that were just telling people with disabilities you can't come in. Literally blocking the door for entrance into education which as we know is very essential to accessing the broader economic reality to ensuring housing and the purchase of essentials, food, health care, et cetera. And so the -- so this Rehabilitation Act, again, was what the first broad civil rights protections for people with disabilities, but what did it not cover? Well, it didn't cover the rights of people with disabilities with regards to housing. People with disabilities could and were denied housing in various ways but with regard to architectural barriers. So amendments to the Civil Rights Act and the Fair Housing Act in 1988 expanded the civil rights protections with regards to general access to housing across the board. People cannot be denied the sale of a home based on disability. They cannot be denied certain rights to use and enjoy property on the basis of disability. Even in condos, even in apartments, even in private homes, and it covers -- the Fair Housing Act covers a whole host of other rights. More specifically, though, with regards to new construction of multi-family houses and we're talking about apartments here for the most part, people with disabilities were going to be ensured some minimal accessibility. So the amendments to the Fair Housing Act provided that new apartments essentially be designed with some accessible features and these are hypertechnical and there are a number of safe harbor building codes that read along with the statute can provide compliance protection for people who are developing apartments and ensure basic and minimal accessibility into newly constructed housing for people with disabilities. And this was a great step forward. The Rehabilitation Act and the Fair Housing Act, however, didn't again cover every arena of existence and access for people with disabilities. Another significant law that came along about the same tame is the Air Carrier Access Act with regards to -- with regards to passenger airlines, larger career airlines. We're not talking about three seater puddle jumpers flying over the back woods in Alaska, but we're are talking about air carriers routinely running shuttle and long distance service domestically and to a certain extent the behavior of international carriers that do business in the United States. The Air Carrier Access Act, again, offers a set of protections for people with disabilities in accessing something that's very essential to the business economy as well as the personal economy, but most particularly the business economy, the ability to travel easily around the country and conduct business. And there is, again, a number of very technical realities with regards to the rights of people with disabilities in what is admittedly one of the most heavily regulated and safety controlled arenas, and that's air flight. Post 9/11, that situation has gotten even more complicated and there have been a number of guidance recommendation changes from the investigative agency, in this case the Department of Transportation with regards to the treatment of people with disabilities and the screening of people disabilities. But, again, the Air Carrier Access Act is the law that protects people with disabilities with regards to commercial air flight, passenger air flight. Again, what is missing with the Rehabilitation Act and the amendments to the Fair Housing Act and the Air Carrier Access Act? Well, there is a whole heck of a lot that's missing. Access to broader society and the genius of the Americans with Disabilities Act was ensuring access for people with disabilities to businesses that are open to the public. Those places of public accommodation, those places where we buy services, where we gather, where we assemble. Those places that really define who we are in a community as much as our homes or churches might. So, yes, the neighborhood pub; yes, the shopping mall; yes, the nonprofit thrift center; you know, yes, the grocery store; yes, the specialty clothing store; yes, the durable medical supply retailer; yes, the pharmacy, et cetera. These are places of public accommodation. In the Americans with Disabilities Act brought those in to protection as well as providing protection for people with disabilities against discrimination in the workplace. So the Americans with Disabilities Act, again, extended the protection into the workplace and even in to private employers and prohibits discrimination based on disability and requires reasonable accommodations be provided so that qualified applicants and employees with disabilities can be hired, can work and take advantages of the benefits and privileges of employment. Now, that's a very quick overview of the ADA and Rehabilitation Act and the Air Carrier Access Act. We're going to be talking about all these laws generally and more specifically referring to parts of the ADA. I will try to, again, signal what I'm talking about if the specificity is important, if it's different under one law versus the other. So I'll make every effort to be as precise that way as I can. Keep in mind we normally do this in front of a live audience, so really good advocates will call me on that and I will unashamedly offer a correction, but keep in mind, again, we'll try to respond and I'll also -- will try to respond to any question that you have or concerns about accuracy, but I'll also try to signal what I'm speaking about when that matters and isn't just a general good practice. Do we have any questions right now, Diego? >> DIEGO: Aaron, let me clarify something for our listeners for a second before you continue. I wanted to let you continue with the next segment before I threw out some questions because you basically just gave the overview and that was the introduction part of it. But I wanted to mention to listeners that some of the questions that we are receiving from people have a lot more to do with what we would recommend for them to do in terms of a particular issue and they are not necessarily questions concerning why should you file a charge discrimination complaint or a complaint charging or alleging discrimination based on disability. So I just wanted to clarify that for folks because they can always call us on our hotline or go through the website and send us E-mails if they have questions on different matters concerning -- if they have concerns about disability discrimination or they feel they are being discriminated against or that a problem wasn't addressed by a service provider and so forth. So, again, a quick reminder, the topic is why should we file a complaint alleging discrimination based on disabilities. Go ahead, Aaron. >> AARON: Thank you, Diego. Well, what I need to emphasis is that the Americans with Disabilities Act and these other laws that we referenced like the Air Carrier Access Act, The Rehabilitation Act, the Fair Housing Act are civil rights laws. I cannot emphasize that enough. And I'll explain what that means and I think the direct and personal implications of that. These are -- the ADA generally is an omni bus civil rights law that con percent the most protections for people with disabilities of any law in the world. Other countries, other developed countries, even some of the more progressive or socialized northern European countries may have similar laws, but none of them provide the same types of protection that the Americans with Disabilities Act do for people with disabilities or does for people with disabilities in this country. It is a very American-style law, a very by your own boot straps type of law. It's been described as a leveling of the playing field type of law. All of these laws are aimed at providing protections for the same things that everybody else gets. We like to joke around the office sometime that the ADA and these other laws are about ensuring that people with disabilities have the same lousy amount of access as everybody else does. And while it's a little bit tongue in cheek to a certain extent that's true. These are minimal protections ensuring little more than the right to achieve and fail to buy and sell -- and that's pretty much it. But that's essential. That's incredible. But they are civil rights laws. I think it's abundantly clear that in all of the ADA and I. T. centers across the country and there are ten of these. They used to be known as disability and business technical assistance centers, but they are ADA and I. T. centers. That's what the Disability Law Resource Project is and the nine other sister agencies that serve the rest of the country. All have that same hotline number that Diego just detailed, a 1-800-949-4232. I got that right, Diego, right? >> DIEGO: Yes, you are correct and I'm happy you mentioned that because I don't think I mentioned it. It is 1-800-949-4232. >> AARON: and we all use that number and if you call from the states we serve, you get us and sometimes there is a bizarre hanging county in another state that we get and probably happens, but that's all right. People who call that hotline, you know, can generally get an answer; or at least a referral to someone who can give a better answer with regards to the broad sweep of disability rights and very particular technical things under the ADA such as the maximum slope on a ramp t proper height for a laboratory, et cetera. Those very simple and straight technical things we can get answers to or E-mail answers very quickly; but I think -- I know this is common with everybody who answers that hotline or responds to E-mail is there is a broad misunderstanding as to what the Americans with Disabilities Act or these other laws actually are. For some reason, people think that the ADA is an agency, that it is an enforcement agency and they somehow believe that there are a number of enforcement officials that are prepared to spread across the country and ensure that buildings are built correctly and ensure that people who inadvertently or maliciously deny access to someone with disabilities or ma line someone with a disability in some way or deny them something that they feel they have a right to, and they'll come and do something to them, that they will sue them or jail them or what have you. And there isn't an agency like that. The Americans with Disabilities Act is not an agency, it's a law. It's a set of civil rights protections, and what that means for the person with the disability is that the burden is largely on the person who is protected under the law to enforce it. Yes, there are some requirements under the ADA. If you build a new building and the enforce built of the ADA, accessibility guidelines, the effective date was long, long past so there is plenty fairly old buildings that are considered new under the law, new construction, but if you build a new commercial facility, you should be complying with the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines; but for the most part, that's never being checked. Most local permitting authorities such as counties or cities that grant building and occupancy and safety permits, the vast majority of them do not check for ADA accessibility guideline compliance. There are in state and local schemes like Texas has where a statewide architectural barrier law is in force through a particular mechanism. One out of 50 states. In most cases, we're relying on architects. We're relying on general contractors. We're relying on the good conscience of the property owner to ensure that they comply under potential threat of what? Of a lawsuit or a complaint. Civil rights laws are enforced by the people who are protected by them, and the mechanisms of which they enforce their rights are through a lawsuit, in this case would be a lawsuit filed in federal court, or a complaint or a charge of discrimination filed with the responsible enforcement agency or investigative agency. So I need to make that abundantly clear. There is only two ways to enforce your rights under the ADA. You have to sue or you have to file a complaint as a person with a disability or, let's say, a parent of a child with a disability. And otherwise, the ADA is really not going to do you a huge amount of good. Well, that's a little bit disingenuous. I think because of its existence, it chilled a lot of discriminatory practices, but unless business owners, employers, people who build commercial facilities, unless they fear being sued or receiving a complaint that was sent to a federal agency for enforcement, they're unlikely to respect that law. So, again, these laws are complaint and lawsuit driven. To quote John Woodward, he's a social worker, but he's -- I know him because he's a fairly famous disability rights journalist and he's one of the best wordsmiths in that community with regards to explaining these very issues and he says the Americans with Disabilities Act is not an end in itself. It's a tool, and it must be used for people with disabilities to assert -- and we hear this quite a bit -- that the ADA or the Americans with Disabilities Act is a flawed law that does them no good is absurd, unless they try to get their rights enforced. Undoubtedly, the Americans with Disabilities Act, and any civil rights law, is flawed. They are probably hard to pass in perfect form in front of a Congress that may not wish to burden the business community that harshly, but the law is there and it's a good and strong law that offers an enormous amount of protections if people with disabilities do as John Woodward say and use that tool. Now, I don't want to deemphasize how important it is at times to file a lawsuit and to file a complaint, but I also want to encourage people at the very beginning, there are some complaints that you can resolve -- some concerns about accessibility or discrimination or perceptions of discrimination that maybe don't even -- maybe don't even need to go that far F. you feel you've been discriminated against, say, in a hotel by a clerk or by the lack of accessible rooms, have you actually confronted management? Have you asked somebody who could potentially solve the problem? Or have you contacted the corporate side of that hotel chain? Or have you merely left and gone on to another hotel? You know, have you tried to work that out at all? A lot of times people with disabilities -- and I think anybody to be honest -- maybe timid to confront what they feel is a discriminatory practice. And I don't blame someone for not wanting to spend every day in a social action, but people need to figure out where to draw the line. Sometimes these problems can be solved fairly easily. For the most part, and I think most researchers agree with me, in most cases, the kind of discrimination that people with disabilities face is of a character that's different than the type of race-based discrimination or gender-based discrimination that we see. I'll be honest with you, I don't think that there are too many folks who get up in the morning and say, you know, I really hate all those children with disabilities and those disabled war vets. The kind of discrimination that people with disabilities face is generally based on just bald ignorance of the law and the obligations that, let's say, a business owner such as a hotel owner or a franchisee may have to customers with disabilities. But also a fear that complying with the law is going to be prohibitively expensive, and so a lot -- again, I think most discrimination is born out of that. Now, don't get me wrong, there are surely people who have odd idiosyncratic beliefs about disability, the origins of disabilities, there are certainly the same kind of fear-based discrimination, particularly against people with psychiatric disabilities, but for the most part, most discrimination is born out of ignorance and fear of cost. And I raise the point, that being said, a good advocate -- a good advocate can learn what their rights are and can help somebody find a solution to compliance. If that fails, then you can certainly file a lawsuit or file a complaint. Now, filing a lawsuit -- I want to mention this. It's often hard for people to find an attorney who is willing to take an ADA complaint against a public agency like a city government or a place of public accommodation like a shopping mall. Now, there are quite a few attorneys who handle employment discrimination law that feel comfortable litigating in Title I or the employment part of the ADA. People with those types of complaints have -- against employers or potential employers have much better luck finding an attorney who will take the case. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that that portion of the Americans with Disabilities Act looks a lot like the similar provisions under the '64 Civil Rights Act with regards to employment. And the reason why is because a large part of the language of the ADA employment provisions were drawn out of that Civil Rights Act. Attorneys are comfortable litigating in that arena. And I think one of the things that -- one of the reasons that you don't see attorneys willing to take cases where the complaint would be against a public agency or a place of public accommodation is because they just don't fully understand the Americans with Disabilities Act and all the other implications such as physical and ash text rail accessibilities, communication barriers, the right to effective communication, that to their minds as an industry, horribly complicates those matters. Now, there are protections and advocacy organizations in every state, and these are small, nonprofit, public interest, legal clinics that are charged with enforcing the rights of people with disabilities. Now, keep in mind though, these are very small organizations. They are not mandated to take every complaint and to take it to suit. They do an enormous amount of good with very few staff and very few resources for a pittance of pay. I have an incredible amount of respect for every protection and advocacy in our region and in any other region that I visited for that matter; but they will be the first ones to tell you that they have to ration their service and every complaint is not going to merit their attention. The bigger the issue, the more common the issue, the more specific to the general mission of that particular protection and advocacy organization, the more like -- the more the complaint is like the skill set that the attorneys and residents have, you know, they may focus more on school law in a particular state because they have people who understand school law better. But, again, there are complaints that you can take to them and at times they will litigate. They've done an enormous amount of good. There are some other nonprofit agencies in various states that will take ADA, Title II and Title III cases. Sometimes the area bar association -- local bar association will have volunteer lawyer projects or pro bono law projects. Sometimes law schools will have clinics and they will entertain discrimination cases, including ADA cases, but none of these organizations are mandated to take these cases. And that leaves a lot of folks in the lurch with regards to accessing an attorney. And again, there is just not a lot of attorneys who do understand this law. Now, I'm not saying this to discourage you, but I live in a city where the metropolitan area by last count there were 16,000 attorneys. Of those 16,000, I'm only aware of three that would potentially take a Title II or Title III case. Now, think about those numbers there. And it paints something of a grim picture, but it's not totally grim because you can file a complaint. And complaints can be very effective. Now that I've probably disgusted you with the state of the legal profession and I have no problem with you being upset with them because I think they should a tented to this issue more and be more willing to take these cases, I do want to talk about the complaint processor the charge of discrimination cases. >> DIEGO: Aaron, before you continue with that, let me throw you a general question that has come in that is kind of being repeated throughout many questions. Sort of an underlying theme, as it were, the difference between dealing with a problem privately, let's say you want to complain against a restaurant whom you think discriminated against you because of a disability versus filing a complaint with the United States Department of Justice with the DOJ, can you explain what -- you know, what process does one go through in thinking about how to deal with this? >> AARON: Well, I mean -- I think one of the things -- and I'm sure you do this as well when you're answering technical assistance calls, is you have people that kind of want to take their own pulse. Is this something that's happening all the time? Has it been happening forever? Have you been reasonable in your complaints? Have you tried to address this with management? Have you tried to help them to a solution? Have you encouraged them to call the ADA and IT centers? Have you been kind enough to download, for example, the proper way on configure a door to allow access to somebody who uses a wheelchair? Have you done that kind of work? If you have, and they still are being obtuse or intentionally discriminatory, then you probably know the answer. You probably know that you're going to file a complaint; but if you've merely been denied service once and it's by someone who really isn't empowered to do that, somebody who is providing bad customer service, is that something you want to file a complaint on? Now, I don't want to chill anyone in the pursuit of their rights where they feel they've been discriminated against, but people -- but, you know, people do need to balance out how much attention they want to pay and how much passion they want to throw at it. It gets more complicated in the workplace. You know, do you still like your job despite the fact this happened? Is this likely to be repeated? Is it going to place you at risk if it continues? Is it open and hostile? Is it affecting other parts of your life? Well, then you probably know the answer. Maybe you need to do -- to file a charge of discrimination. Often because we serve five states that are largely rural -- there are large cities in each of our states, but there are immense -- many, many, many miles of emptiness or scattered population in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas and New Mexico. And we'll get a call from a self-advocate in a small town who is very embedded in the culture of that town and really wants to continue having the same kind of access that they had before their disability, let's say, progressed. And they harbor no ill will for the corner store, for the coffee house they ate breakfast in every day for 16 years and now they are being denied access. In that set of circumstances, we ask them, here are your rights. Well, we tell them here are your rights. The person with the disability. Here are their obligations. Here are the mechanisms to complain, but you can also have them call us if they have a question about how to comply. Here is some information you can send them about tax incentives for small businesses that spend money on accessibility. You know, we encourage people to incentivize compliance because our goal isn't just to stir everybody up with disabilities and encourage them to sue and file complaints. As an organization we're dedicated to affirmative compliance, you know, to compliance before it becomes a discriminatory or before it becomes a habitually discriminatory. So I'm kind of waffling on answering that question. I think people really do have to take the pulse of how passionate they feel about it, but those are good questions that people are asking and I think, thinking about those issues. People with disabilities must do the work of self-advocacy. I can't emphasize that enough. You know, these civil rights laws have very few affirmative requirements in reality. You know, as I indicated, there is no ADA police. Very few buildings are going to be inspected for compliance this way at least by a responsible public agency. So people have to be willing to, you know, pursue their rights. Now, one of the strategies is suing. One of the strategies is filing a complaint and certainly another strategy is advocating outside of those two arenas and trying to get people to comply out of economic sense, out of moral rightness and to incentivize that by making it easier for them to comply by showing them the way to the trough. >> DIEGO: Let me bring you back, if I may. You were going to talk about the process and we had a question which is exactly about that, the sort of typical process that you go through for filing complaints. >> AARON: We're definitely going to get to that one. So how about this -- how about you wait until I get to that point with that question, all right? >> DIEGO: That's fine. That's fine. That basically was the question, just a typical how do you do it kind of thing. >> AARON: I guarantee you we're going to get there. I'm going to encourage those folks who haven't been -- or haven't e viewed that part of our website. We have two down loads that you certainly didn't have to download, but we could encourage you to. One is a guide to disability rights law. The first seven or eight minutes when I did the overview or ten minutes when I did the overview of that sweep of civil rights laws, all of those are detailed in much better detail in this publication from the U.S. Department of Justice called the guide to disability rights law. And thankfully one of the -- one of you guys caught that it wasn't the newest version and we've since updated it electronically on our website. Thank you for Vinh Nguyen our web guy for that. And for that anonymous person out there who caught that. We do try to do a better job of that. That's my fault, but now it's been credibility so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. Again, this is a general overview of all those laws I mentioned and the other laws that protect the interests of people with disabilities. There is also a compilation of materials that we've titled Enforcing Accessibility Requirements, and I'm going to go over that to a certain extent, but I'm going to encourage you that a lot of your questions will be answered there. I guess the first question that we get when someone wants to know about the process of filing a complaint is who the heck do they file the complaint to? There is a great deal of misunderstanding as to who exactly enforces this law. And since there is this kind of belief that the ADA is an agency in itself, a mistaken belief, that just kind of confuses -- that clouds the issue even more. Before you can figure out where to file your complaint, you kind of have to figure out what your complaint is. And I say this because there are fact issues that we get presented with all the time that actually may strike across multiple laws. You can imagine a set of circumstances where a couple, both with disabilities, are taking a trip. A mixed business and pleasure trip, a fairly common occurrence. One uses a wheelchair for her mobility, the other one has a vision impairment and uses -- and is accompanied by a service animal to promote their independence. A guide dog for the blind. Imagine this couple taking a paratransit on demand shuttle from their door to the airport. Through the airport, they encounter inadequate signage to indicate where the elevators are and of course they can't safely take the escalators to the gates. Once they finally find the elevator and end up on that floor, they find out that the lines for T. S. A. security have been configured in such a way that's inaccessible to the woman who uses a wheelchair. So T. S. A.'s offer is that she get up and walk and they'll lift the chair over. Of course that is not necessarily going to be an option for everybody who uses a chair for mobility. Once they eventually get past T. S. A, despite notifying both the airline well in advance and that day that they were being accompanied by a service an I animal, no one has made provisions for this gentleman who uses a guide dog to easily board with the service animal and have a bulkhead seat despite availability. Once they arrive at their destination, they take a wheelchair lift equipped cab, but it's three hours late. Then they go to a mixed use hotel and condo set up and there is no accessible room. Now, that's a very exaggerated set of facts, but think about which laws were invoked there and which potential agencies were involved? There was a transportation issue at the beginning and it was a public transportation issue. There was a facilities issue at the airport and in all likelihood that facility is owned by a city or a county as most airports are or some other public agency such as an airport district. They had an issue with regards to the transportation and security administration, which is a federal agency providing security at airports and so that's a separate issue. Then they had an issue with the air carrier itself which the ADA does not extent protection to, but the air carrier access does, and the responsible agency for that is the Department of Transportation. On the other end of the trip, they had another problem with transportation, but this time it was with a private carrier that may or may not have been discriminatory by being three hours late. Then they go to what is increasingly common, a hotel/condo set up and they have a problem accessing an accessible room, which may or may not be a violation of both Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act because hotels are places of public accommodation, but it may also be a violation of the Fair Housing Act because the place is actually also considered multi-family housing. So you can see that may complicate the issue. Most people's facts are a little more straightforward, but they need to kind of line up their facts like that. Now, that's a pretty bizarre hypothetical, but it was pieced together out of only three stories actually that I think even Diego would find familiar. Let me start at the beginning. >> DIEGO: There is always lots of those, I'm sure. >> AARON: Let me start at the beginning. Than is detailed in your enforcement accessibility requirements. If you're talking about access to a federally owned facility, such as a federally owned release facility such as your local F.B.I. field office, such as a post office, then the responsible federal agency to ensure access to that facility is the Access Board itself. And contact information is available on that enforcing accessibility requirements. If you're talking about discrimination with regards to purchasing a home or in accessing -- or in technical compliance in a multi-family housing that's been built fairly recently such as a standard apartment complex built within the year 2000 that doesn't have any accessible units, then the responsible agency is housing and urban development, who is the investigative agency and enforcement agency for housing discrimination and the rights under fair housing. If, again, you're talking about the behavior of an air carrier, any airline, think about all the big ones and even some of the small regional ones and the behavior of pretty much anybody once you get past the ticket counter through the jetway on to the plane, then (Inaudible) then the responsible agency is the Department of Transportation and they have -- there is contact information in the enforcing accessibility requirements publication as to how to make those complaints. Now, it gets a little more complicated with regards to the Americans with Disabilities Act because the Americans with Disabilities Act covers, as we indicated, a much wider cross section of potential rights for people with disabilities. And in fact the ADA has nine designated investigative agencies where complaints can be filed. Now, I'm not going to tell you to disregard this entirely, but the Department of Agriculture culture has responsibilities under the ADA. The Department of Education makes sense obviously with regards to complaints made against public agencies, but what does the Department of Agriculture culture of to do with civil rights? Well, the Department of Agriculture culture is responsible for any number of governmental programs such as co-op extension services, 4 H. programs that maybe sponsored in public schools or private schools, the food stamp program is administered by the Department of Agriculture culture because it started as a subsidy to farmers much Mr. So than a social service program and even though it may be administered by the state directly, the responsible department is the Department of Agriculture culture. And access to U.S. forest service programs -- again, there is enough of an interface and a customer service interface for the Department of Agriculture culture to have an office on civil rights and under secretary to civil rights. The Department of Education, of course, governs complaints regarding programs in public elementary and secondary schools, high schools, Vo-Tech programs and in libraries except for those health related educational authorities. And the reason why is because health and human services has -- is a designated investigative agency under the Americans with Disabilities Act. So all those programs related to social services, child care, elder care, preschool, head start, health care programs, including schools of medicine and dentistry, should be directed to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Employment complaints of discrimination should be directed to the EEOC or the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Most other complaints (Inaudible) should be directed when to the U.S. Department of Transportation and pretty much everything else goes to the U.S. Department of Justice. Now, I'm not going to say that you should totally disregard that, but I'm going to assure you that if somehow it would be more appropriately dealt with in one of these federal agencies versus another, but you happen to choose to send it, let's say, to the Department of Health and Human Services and it would be better served by the U.S. Department of Justice, health and human services is going to forward it to the Department of Justice. I have been assured that is the case. Now, it would be a good idea to appropriately forward that, but you can pretty much follow this guide, again, in enforcing accessibility requirements or the guide to disability rights law and rest assured that the federal government -- the federal government agencies responsible for taking these complaints for investigating concerns of discrimination when complaints are filed will handle it appropriately. Now, that doesn't mean that you don't keep a record. That doesn't mean that you send them your only originals of any evidence or photos that you have. You are responsible to only send them copies. Never send them originals and you keep a copy of the letter that you sent. Now, that brings us back to a little bit more to the process. I keep on mentioning a letter. Any number of these agencies will entertain taking complaints over the Internet. In fact, some of them do have online forms that you can fill out and if you have access to the Internet at your home, work or at a public library, you can file a complaint. Others of them will not take complaints that way. Most of them will take complaints via fax or via a letter. And some of the agencies have better interfaces for people who might find it better to dictate, but in most set of circumstances, you're going to need to file something in writing to them, either by yourself or with the assistance of someone. So if you're having a problem with that, then you may need to enlist the assistance of somebody to help you advocate because they're going to want something from you in most circumstances. Okay, the process goes fairly simply like this: You feel that you've been discriminated against. And this is something that's happened fairly recently. Why is that important? Well, I'm going to back you guys up a little bit. When you're considering filing a complaint of discrimination, you need to consider those old classic questions of journalism, the who, the what, the where, the when and maybe even the which, but never the why. And I'll kind of explain why that is. The who is very important. You need to, one, assert that you are a person with a disability or that you're doing this as the behest of someone with a disability, let's say a spouse or a parent for a child or a person with a disability who may not be able to write. You have to assert that the aggrieved person is a person with a disability. Okay? That's mightily important. I have a mild hearing impairment that's very, very mild. Yes, I have a physical impairment, but it's not severe enough to need to be corrected at this point. I'm not a person with a disability. The Americans with Disabilities Act and most of these other laws are meant to serve people who have significant impairments of physical and mental. And the definition is fairly complex and is hotly litigated, but essentially it's this, if the person with physical or mental impairment that substantially limits them in one or more major life activities. And again, this is a hotly litigated definition, but what it means essentially is we're talking about somebody who has a fairly significant physical or mental impairment that's not temporary. So breaking your leg isn't -- doesn't mean that you're a person with a disability. You're certainly impaired, but if you're going to heal in a month or two months or six months, then you're not probably a person with a disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act. But keep in mind you neat to assert -- if you feel that you're a person with a disability, you need to assert that you're person with a disability or representing their interest. That's one of the parts of the who. The second part of the who is who discriminated against you? What agency? What individual? What is the relationship? So assuming that sit a hotel, okay, that brings up one of the next ones, the where. Where can you be contacted? You need to give them an adequate mechanism for them -- for the agency to contact you back to ask for other information in case they want to make a deeper inquiry. So you have to have a way to receive some sort of message and that may be someone else's phone, fax, a post office box, something. Unfortunately they do need a way to contact you. They will not entertain anonymous complaints or at least a representative from one of the offices on civil rights at the federal level has assured me they won't entertain anonymous complaints. So this is again having a way to contact you is another issue of credibility of the complaint. You should provide as much information of how to contact the agency of discrimination. So you will need to look up the address if you haven't kept a record or have a business card or a hotel bill. You may need to get in the phone book and call them up and ask for their address. You don't have to represent that you're doing it to file a complaint, but you may need to do at least that much legwork. The what -- you need to allege that you were discriminated against. I know that sounds -- I know that sounds rather elementary, but you have to assert that you're a person with a disability and you were discriminated against and what actually happened. Now, you don't have to be an attorney. You don't even have to know every aspect of law, but you need to assert that you were denied access, that you were treated differently than other people without disabilities or other customers without disabilities. Now, ironically, out of all these federal agencies that receive complaints that are investigative agencies, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, I think, has the clearest set of guidelines as to what to include in your complaint letter. And again, they kind of lay it out in this who/what format you need to lay the basis of your complaint out. What do you believe was the motivating factor for discrimination? How were you deprived from access? What kind of programs were you denied? Or what is it about the facility that actually creates a real barrier to you? And be very specific about including any -- any facts that would suggest that you were denied a benefit or service that other people weren't and even better if the discriminating party was silly enough to give you this in writing, you should probably include that or rather a copy of that. Now, a lot of people laugh and say that never happens, but I have seen letters from physicians stating that they will not serve a patient and that the only basis was that person used a wheelchair. No other explanation as to why that -- as to what the rationale is. No assertion of a defense as to why that might be a lawful thing, just a flat denial. Now, regrettably, when I saw this letter, it was in the hands of somebody who had been discriminated against three years ago and that brings me to the next big journalist particular question, when. In most set of circumstances, you need to file a complaint, if you're choosing to go that route, within a 180 days or approximately six months from the date of the discrimination. Now, in most set of circumstances, that's an absolute bar if it's passed 180 days in most set of circumstances that's your absolute limit. And so speaking of the general situation here, there are certain circumstances where it can be extended, but it's never going to be extended that long. Unfortunately, all too often, we're hearing about complaints that, you know -- about discrimination that occurred two, three, five and ten years ago. And that still pisses the person off -- the person with the disabilities off, and I understand why that may be, but you have to put those complaints behind you. If the discrimination occurred then, it's uneven forcible. Now, a little bit different when you're talking about like a facility-related issue. You know, you may have tried to access the McDonald's let's say 200 days ago and you wrote them copious letters and E-mails and they promised to fix it and they never did and you've never been back. Well, that discrimination may have taken place 200 or 300 days ago and you can still go by that McDonald's and if they haven't put a single curb cut up to the really high sidewalk and you feel that's discriminatory, well, it still is. So, again, that's still an active complaint. That brings me -- >> DIEGO: I'm sorry, Aaron. Let me jump in while you're talking about these different types of scenarios. One interesting question that came in is what the -- what is the extent of -- actually let me rephrase this. The accessibility of the complaint process itself and how should someone who wants to file a complaint address issues when, for example, the process of filing the complaint is not accessible. The website, for example, intake form, or the telephone menu is too complicated and they can't navigate it. >> AARON: Well, in that set of circumstances, they're going to need to request an accessible form be sent to them or in most set of circumstances, you don't have to have a form. None of these agencies require you to use their form even if they have one. They will entertain a complaint letter that sufficiently alleges that you're a person with a disability that was discriminated against in this set of circumstances and with enough facts for them to pursue it. So that may be the cure right there. There may be circumstances where someone's disability is so complicating that it seems like they can't be assisted, but they can certainly request that these agencies try to offer some mechanism to communicate with them effectively. They all -- they all make an effort to be accessible. All federal websites are supposed to be minimally accessible and 508 compliant by now, and all of these investigative agencies that I have checked -- and I think they all do -- have telecommunication devices for the deaf, and again, all of them will entertain a complaint or a charge letter that's not completed on their forms. And all of them should accept the complaint where the responsible party has been assisted by someone in filling it out; but inevitably, the person with the disability has to do the work. Or at least get assistance in doing the work and doing the advocacy. >> DIEGO: Okay. Let me throw another one at you. This relates to someone who apparently requested an interpreter for a court hearing and the court denied it. The question is -- and this is assuming that the court had to provide an interpreter to begin with. The question is who would such a complaint go to? Would that become a federal complaint? Do you do it locally with the court clerk? >> AARON: That's a good question, actually. Now, again, we're talking about federal laws. So these complaints are filed with federal agencies. Now, I'm assuming this is not a federal court. I'm going to assume that this is in fact a -- >> DIEGO: This is a state court. >> AARON: a state court, but this is a state and local governmental entity. The Americans with Disabilities Act, Title II, covers the rights to programs and services provided by state and local governmental entities which includes everything from the governor to the state legislature to law enforcement, public schools and public universities and even the courts and police. I know a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their head around it, but getting arrested, formally charged and prosecuted is actually a program and service of a public agency. And to the extent that you're a person with a disability, getting arrested, charged and convicted -- certain of your rights need to be respected. Now, access to interpreters in court is a -- is a subject for an entire webcast because it gets very, very complicated with a lot of state schemes and the underlying obligation for public entities is not to provide interpreters, it's to provide effective communication. That complicates things immensely, but assuming it was a state court or a district court, then as I detailed, it's a Title II entity. Now, in most sets of circumstances, those complaints would be filed with the U.S. Department of Justice. If you feel that you've been discriminated against because you've been denied a requested -- an a come indication of an interpreter and that communication failed, that it was ineffective and that your rights were degraded because of that, then you would file a complaint with the U.S. Department of Justice alleging that you're a person with a disability that this court and in particular this judge and this setting at this time and this location and you can contact them here and you can contact me here failed to provide an interpreter after I had requested one. Communication failed and I couldn't par fist Pate in my own defense, for example, and you can file a complaint with the U.S. Department of Justice. >> DIEGO: So one main idea that's really important is that you clearly explain what your problem was. >> AARON: and what your problem was -- again, state that you're a person with a disability. Give as much good contact information as you can. I'm kind of walking you guys through baby steps on these who, what, when and where. >> DIEGO: Let me throw you something more complicated. >> AARON: Okay, go ahead. >> DIEGO: It's only because it's a very broad question that people keep asking through our webcast or through calls and I just wanted you to kind of briefly mention why someone should file. The general question is why should we what will that do? >> AARON: I think I kind of made that clear at the beginning. If you don't try to pursue your rights, you will not have them. If but for the specter of a lawsuit or a complaint and enforcement action hanging over the heads of employers, business owners, public agencies, but for that fear, a lot of folks would not comply with the law. Far many employers, public agencies, state and local governmental entities, private commercial property developers would avoid complying with the law, but for the fear of that complaint. That's what will happen. In addition to that, your particular problem will not get solved. Imagine the good that -- imagine the good that, you know, one good, well-informed, good natured advocate can do in a small town. I think we've seen for example the work of one diligent mother of a child with a disability who educated herself on what her son's rights were, what the school districts, what the cities, what the county, the transportation authority and various businesses' obligations were, and yes, she filed lawsuits. She filed complaints, but she also walked people through what their obligations were. She spent her own time sending people the ADA Accessibility Guidelines and she has done a great deal of work. So singularly one of the best advocates I've ever met and has been doing it for a relatively short period of time. That's the good that you can do and the alternative is just to watch the law become useless because all civil rights laws are complaint driven. So I think -- if you don't -- if you want to be protected and have the minimal set of access, the same lousy set of rights as people -- as everyone else has with or without disabilities, then you'll certainly do your best to do the work of good self-advocacy. >> DIEGO: This is, again, on the fact that the agencies take complaints. Somebody -- this is an interesting one -- does the Access Board take complaints? >> AARON: They take complaint where they are supposed to enforce. And their obligations are to enforce the Architectural Barriers Act with regards to federal facilities and federally leased facilities. So post offices, for example, if there is a post office in the country that is still not accessible to people with disabilities that's not minimally compliant with basic accessibility or the Uniform Federal Accessibility Standards, then the complaint would be filed with the U.S. Access Board. That's their only enforcement action, but that's pretty considerable. >> DIEGO: Okay. Let me -- >> AARON: Actually, let me. I'm looking at the clock. I'm looking at the clock and I need to get through the rest of this material. I think I stopped at when and I made that abundantly clear. That in most set of circumstances it's better sooner than later. Now, you do have a little bit of time. So I would encourage you to do everything you can to document this well. I think we've alluded to the fact that in some cases you can actually get evidence from the person who is discriminating against you. If you're being charged a surcharge for a service for, you know, for an assistive service or for access to, for example, accessible seating, that's probably going to be an unlawful surcharge. You may actually have a record of it, but you never send originals. What to include along with your complaint -- remember, provide enough facts to be specific about the nature of the discriminating act or the barriers that you face that you feel are unlawful, but if you have any supporting documentation, send that along. It is absolutely true that a picture is worth a thousand words. If you can print out additional photos or send along a copy of -- from a film camera, but remember only send copies, of a brand new facility that has no way for somebody who uses a mobility aid to get into it, then that's going to clearly make the case for that responsible investigative agency. So, again, I encourage you to use photos when that's appropriate, to send copies of correspondence that you have sent back and forth. So if you've spent some time negotiating with, let's say, a small business or an employer, et cetera, and you have a communication trail, you should send copies of that. Now, I also encourage people when they think this may be an issue, and I know Diego does this as well, that you do need to create the paper trail. All too often we'll talk on the phone and that doesn't really create much of a paper trail. Now, I think it's appropriate to talk to people on the phone, but you can follow up with an E-mail detailing the nature of the conversation and, for example, assuring them that you will get back with them later in the week. Now, that's created at least some documentation that you communicated with them at some point. Try to get people to render denials in writing if you can. If they're going to deny you access, try to get them to write it down. Now, that tends to put people on notice and they tend to stop discriminating any number of times if you ask them to do that, but don't be dissuaded from filing a complaint if you don't have this kind of information. I'm just saying that if you do have communications back and forth, try to create the paper trail and then send along copies of that correspondence. Anything that you can do to show that you have tried to reasonably negotiate and you have been unreasonable I denied access or have been treated in a discriminatory manner is going to be all that much more evidence that that party is actually discriminating against you and that makes it so much easier and more interesting for the invest gate tiff agency. So again never send originals. All too many people have sent copies and not put enough postage and, you know, I've heard this story exaggerated dozens of times. You know, don't send originals. Keep copies of all the correspondence that you send in support of the complaint. So that if you have to refile it, you certainly can. Now, as I said at the very beginning, when we started this list of classic journalistic questions, that you really shouldn't concern yourself so much with the why. When people call the ADA and IT center hot lines, all too often they are wrapped up in the why. Why did this happen? Why did he do that? Why is the school acting like this? Why haven't they fixed the door to the bathroom? And I'm going to say that with regards to your complaint, in most times that's a useless waste of concern. The why someone is discriminating against you is probably because they are cheap and greedy or they are ignorant and in most cases that's the case. Ignorant of their obligations or hoping they never get caught because they don't want to spend the money. That's probably the why, but again, all too many people wrap all their emotions around that and rather than doing effective advocacy or self-advocacy, get wrapped up into trying to solve the why and trying to deal too much with the emotions or the rationale behind this. I'll be honest with you, if somebody is discriminating against me, I don't care why. I want them to stop. I'm not saying that you shouldn't exude your passion when you're filing a complaint. Show them that you're hurting and that you're angry and that this is important to you, but get the facts down. Don't -- don't throw out speculations as to why this may have occurred if you haven't put the facts down as to what actually occurred and who you are and how you can be contacted and how they can be located or the discriminating party can be located. It's pretty straightforward process. Send this to one of the responsible agencies and again we've given you a really easy rubric in that handout which again is titled enforcing accessibility requirements. In most set of circumstances you can figure out from that list, which is done in a simple Q. and A. format which agency to file this with. And you need to indicate that you -- who you are or who you're doing this for if you are assisting somebody with a complaint. You need to provide enough contact information for yourself, for the invest gate tiff or enforcement agency to get back with you. You need to provide enough specific information so they can locate the discriminating party or program or agency. You need to allege with specificity that you have -- that you're a person with a disability and that you have been discriminated against and you must give them enough facts so that they can decide fairly quickly that this is actually discrimination. And then provide any support documentation that you have including photos. Never send originals and that's pretty much it. The cost of that is an enormous emotional commitment and it may be a pretty considerable commitment of time if it's a complex issue to put all this together, to negotiate, the copy documentation, but inevitably, the real cost of this is in paper and envelope and a 39-cent stamp. And I think that's important to lay out there and as obvious as that is, that's important to lay out there as anything else we've discussed. The fear for whatever reason of a lot of people with disabilities is that this is going to be an expensive or laborious process and it really isn't. If you have access to a computer, in some circumstances, you can file this online nearly instantaneously. I would encourage you if it's a fairly complex issue and you have a lot of documentation that you go ahead and send a paper copy, or follow up with a paper copy of the complaint, but the actual financial costs are fairly low. And that's pretty much it. That's a lot of information in a really short period of time. I can only encourage you to go back to those -- those two handouts that are available for download on our website, dlrp.org under this webcast and to read the guide to disability rights law and to read the enforcing accessibility requirements handout. Are there any other questions hanging out, Diego? We've got a few minutes. >> DIEGO: Yeah, I wanted to ask you a question that came in concerning public schools where of course you -- now you're bring in IDEA and Section 504 as well as Title II of the ADA, and there seems to be a confusion in terms of -- let's assume for the purposes of the question that someone is being denied a right -- a child. >> AARON: Well, that's a much more complex circumstance. >> DIEGO: I know it is. And what I meant to frame it if it was an IDEA complaint then they have to go to the United States board of education, right? >> AARON: the IDEA is individuals with disabilities education ake. It used to be the education for all handicapped children's act back in the '70's and some of you older folks will remember that one because some of you older folks with disabilities, that was the first time you got to go to school. And it has its own administrative process. Now, keep in mind this is the program that gets students who have disabilities that impact learning -- this is the set of laws that protects their interests and requires that the school, one, discover children who have disabilities that cause educational deficits, screen them, tests them, offers services of an individualized nature, special education programming. That's what this law is aimed at, at correcting those educational deficits and getting that kid as far along the road as possible to not having educational deficits. It's a different set of rights than the general nondiscrimination rights under Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Now, this is where things get really complicated in this environment. If you've got a kid with a disability in a public school, particularly an elementary school, the school is going to be focused on that IEP or the Individual Education Plan under the IDEA, and fact that that kid comes in potentially with a whole set of other rights under the potentially under the Americans with Disabilities Act is often ignored by the school. I think in the most recent webcast that we did on service animals, we had the case -- a recent nationally touted case about a student without intellectual deficits who had a service animal and they were trying to go to school. Now, they didn't need to be protected under the IDEA or the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act because they were performing at grade level educationally; but they were a person with a disability and they were trying to be accompanied by their service animal in school. Now, think that helps draw the line there a little bit. That person had rights under Title II of the ADA and was requesting a reasonable modification of the school's policy against having animals accompanying students. That was a person with a disability coming in with a service animal. The school wanted to have an IEP meeting and to make the subject -- and our question was what -- subject to what? The kid didn't have an educational deficits, so that was an inappropriate application of that law and was in fact I think a stall tactic by the grade school. And I think parents needs to understand when you have a kid who is eligible for is being screened for services under an IEP or potential IEP, then I think it behooves those parents to be as informed about that process because unlike filing a complaint for a violation of the ADA, there are particular administrative steps that you have to go through when you're negotiating for a child's right under the I-D-E-A or IDEA. Typically a child is showing educational deficits, they are ideally tested by some sort of educational diagnostician or educational psychologist, the nature of the -- the nature of the deficits are defined and maybe even a disability or learning disability is identified and then ideally a strategy to maximize that child's educational abilities through special education supports are mapped out and then that child is offered those supports with the approval of the parent and then that child's progress is periodically updated through additional testing and that kid's Individual Education Plan or IEP is adjusted as that child makes progress or needs a dig al correction. I think a lot of parents out there will find some frustration with that process. But that's a separate process if you disagree with what's being done or the school isn't abiding by their own Individual Education Plan or the parents have identified additional services that the child can take advantage of and the school is refusing, there is an administrative process that you need to go through before you would take it to court even. But again that's an entirely different webcast and I do believe one that we have a good deal -- a subject we have a great deal of content in our webcast archives which I would encourage you to visit. Now, we're up against our hour and a half wall here and I just wanted to thank everybody for participating. This is kind of a big and vague issue, but I want to encourage you, if we didn't address your question specifically, we will through via E-mail or phone call. I urge you to go to our website. Again, check out the downloadable handouts and as well as peruse our archive of over three years of I think quality webcasts. We're not always so inbred and do this in-house. We have brought some of the best federal officials and academics and researchers and disability advocates to do this in the past. I'm going to hand this over to Diego to close this out. >> DIEGO: Thank you, Aaron, for joining us for this webcast and basically everything that you said goes and people can check our website, dlrp.org as well as ilru.org for archived webcasts from the past on different topics, including IDEA and 504 and several other disability-related topics. I hope that the webcast was informative for everyone and I wanted to assure everyone that if your question wasn't mentioned on the air, it will be responded to probably through an E-mail if you sent yours through an E-mail. So just be patient with us and somebody will forward you a response with some helpful information, attachments and whatnot. We always try to respond to people within a reasonable time so we have a pretty good track record about that. Also our call-in hotline if you're within the southwest region is -- if you're calling out of that region or want to call the local number (713)520-0232. This is the Disability Law Resource Project. I'd like to acknowledge the people who make all of this possible like the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research who funds the Disability Law Resource Project and I want to acknowledge the team who put the webcast together, which is the ILRU team consisting of Marj Gordon, Sharon Finney, Dawn Heinsohn, Vinh Nguyen, Rob Dickehuth, Tajauna Arnold, Marissa Demaya, Maria del Bosque and our realtime captioner has been Marie Bryant and once again this is Diego Demaya, your host for today moderating the webcast and feel free to contact us and we'll see you again on a future webcast and thanks for joining us.