Education, Employment and You: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. Presenters: Paul Fogel, Michael Murray, Chelsea Tobin, Rachael Dorrman, Jamie Watts. >> OPERATOR: Excuse me everyone, we now have our speakers in conference. Please be aware that each of your lines is in a listen-only mode. At the conclusion of the presentation, we will open the floor for questions. At that time instructions will be given if you would like to ask a question. I would now like to turn the conference over to Mr. Paul Fogel. Sir, please begin. >> PAUL: Hi, and welcome to this teleconference entitled Education, Employment and You: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. My name is Paul Fogel and I'm a member of the National Youth Leadership Network. I'll be your moderator for this evening. I would like to tell you a little bit about the call. The National Youth Leadership Network is conducting this teleconference with support from the Independent Living Research Utilization or ILRU. This is scheduled to be an hour and 30 minute call. During the first hour, the speakers will answer questions and then -- the speakers will answer questions on issues around education, employment and transition. The last 30 minutes of the teleconference will be for participants to ask the speakers questions of the once the speakers have answered all the chosen questions, telephone lines will be open giving you a chance to ask the speakers a question. For those of you joining on the web, you can send your questions to Lisa McMahon at mcmahonl@pdx.edu any time during the call. If you have any technical problems during the call, please contact Kristen Jones at (713)529-1230. At the end of the speakers' session, you will be given instructions by an ILRU operator on what buttons to press on your telephone to voice your questions. Today we are joined by Rachael Dorrman, Office of Disability Employment Policy, Jamie Watts, Michael Murray, National Council on Disability Youth Advisory Committee, and Chelsea Tobin an NYLN member as our guest speakers. Now I'd like to take this opportunity to ask each speaker to take a minute to briefly introduce themselves and we'll start with Rachael Dorrman. >> RACHAEL: (no audio). >> PAUL: Next we'll go to Michael Murray. Michael, can you please introduce yourself. >> MIKE: Absolutely, Paul. Rachael, if I do say, that was a beautiful introduction. >> RACHAEL: This is Rachael. I totally got cut off for the last few minutes and I'm just hearing back in. So I'm not sure what happened. >> PAUL: Let's start with Rachael first for introductions and then we'll go to Michael Murray. >> RACHAEL: I'm glad to be back. You just would like me to introduce myself? Thanks, Paul. Hi, everyone, my name is Rachael Dorrman. And I'm a policy adviser with the Office of Disability Employment Policy, which is located at the U.S. Department of Labor here in Washington D. C. And I'll probably go into more about what I do over the parts of the call, but thanks to the National Youth Leadership Network for inviting me to speak. Thank you. >> PAUL: Now let's turn to Michael Murray. >> MIKE: Thanks, Paul. Rachael, that was a much better introduction than your first one. My name is Michael Murray, and I am a member of the youth advisory committee for the National Council on Disabilities, and we're 12 youths from all over the state that advise NCD on laws that pertain to youths with disabilities and they there by advise the president. I'm also vice-president of the North Carolina youth leadership network and I'm sure I'll have lots of opportunities to talk about that. I'm also going to school to be a special education teacher. So I hope to have a little bit of insight on that. Thanks so much. >> PAUL: and finally or next Jamie Watts. >> JAMIE: Sure. Thank you so much. My name is yam me Watts. I'm an account manager with bender consulting services. What we do is provide competitive employment to individuals with disabilities, mostly in the areas of I. T, finance, accounting, HR, engineering and general business type of opportunities so my role is to work with our employees that come on site here to interface with their customer management and to also work with hiring managers who are looking to integrate their workforce with people with disabilities. >> PAUL: Thank you very much, Jamie. During the course of this evening, we also hope to have Chelsea Tobin on the call. She's currently stuck in traffic and once she gets on the call with us, she'll be joining us as well. Participants, please remember that you will not be able to ask questions until the end of the speaker session. So please try to remember your questions. We are now ready to begin asking the speakers some chosen questions. Each speaker will have up to seven minutes to discuss his or her answer to the question. Now lets begin with speaker session. And the first question will be to Michael Murray. What is the importance of youth participating in the IEP meetings? >> MIKE: Thanks, Paul. As I was kind of thinking over this in my head, I really came up with two main things and I think that these are the two main reasons, although there are lots of other reasons surrounding it. The first reason is no one knows a person with a disability better than the person who has the disability. It is super important to include the person who you're actually talking about. I've been in a number of IEP meetings as a special ed teacher where we're talking about a young person and the young person is nowhere to be seen. I just think that this is something that you can't do. It's like going to the doctor and you don't tell the doctor, hey, man, my knee hurts or anything like that. You know, he just assumes that he knows exactly what's wrong with you or knows exactly what you need. The second thing that I would say is I really think that youth need to stand out and speak up. I think even if you know exactly what you need and the people in the IEP meeting know exactly what you need, you still should be a part of the process because youth should have a voice. So I would say on the one hand you have to take care of yourself within the IEP process and make sure that your needs are met, but then on the other side, there is a larger community of youth and this larger community of youth are oftentimes left out of their IEP meeting or decisions are made and they are just allowed to sit and listen. So there has to be a start. There has to be a youth voice, and it's going to start very small and I think it's already started, but there has to be some who would say, you know what, I don't like what you wrote on my IEP, I think the goal should sound like this. I think that you should start looking at this. I want to learn this. This is what I want to see with my education. And once we start doing that, then it's going to shake up the waters a little bit. You'll have some teachers on the edge of their seat going, hey, can they do that? And then eventually they'll realize that, hey, these young people have something very valuable to offer to the IEP process and once that begins to get ingrained into their heads, they're going to say, you know, maybe we shouldn't just include the youth who forced us to include them. Maybe we should include anyone and everyone because youth with disabilities have an intense amount of knowledge and -- I don't even know what to say. We've got so much to offer to this process and we really have to -- people should be open and willing and want us inside of this process because without us I don't -- I just don't think it can be done. So I hope -- I could ramble on longer but I don't think I will. So the first thing is no one knows you better than you, and the second thing is youth have to stand up and speak out not only for themselves, but also for the greater community at large. >> PAUL: Great. Thank you, Michael. The next question will be going back to Michael Murray, and what is the difference between high school and college and how to prepare for transition? >> MIKE: Great. Wow, I'll keep going. Let me see what I wrote on my notes, the difference between high school and college and how to prepare for the transition. There are two things that I wrote here again because I don't want to be too long and again I thought Chelsea was going to be here. I thought she would help me a little bit, but the biggest difference is that there is no IEP. There is no Individual Education Plan. You know, when you were in high school, you had this piece of paper that told teachers what you need, that told administration what you need, that told everyone surrounding you, these are the goals, these are the things that this person needs in order to succeed. Now, when you go to college, there is no such thing. They may look at your IEP as a point of reference, but that IEP is no longer nearly as important, and because there is no IEP, it's also no law that says whatever is on that IEP you have to do. So oftentimes professors are not so open. They say, okay, you have a disability. Take your seat in the back of the class, I don't care. So with that being said, how can you be prepared for that? The first thing you can do is you need to know what you need because that piece of paper is not going to be there to tell teachers what you need. You need to know what you need. What kind of, you know, assistive technology do you need? What kind of environment do you need to work in best? What supports can be there to help you succeed in college or in the workplace, which ever the case may be. And then once you figure out what those things are -- and you know, work with the teachers who you really trust and whom you really -- who really care about you. And once you figure that out, when you get to college, be ready to fight for it. I can tell you I've been in many a situation where professors just not only were they not open to give me whatever kind of assistance that I needed, whether that was just realizing that sometimes I'm going to misspell something or, you know, I even was talking with someone who was not able to use their computer in class because he didn't like the way that it sounded while he was talking. So, you know, things like this and you have to be ready to advocate for yourself. You have to be ready to go up to him and say I know that you don't understand what it's like to have a disability; but this disability not only does it make me a stronger person, but it also makes me realize that I have needs just as you have needs. And you have to be ready to talk and have a conversation with these people and sometimes you have to be willing to fight against people. You have to be willing to say, you know, this is just too far. And sometimes you have to be ready to back off and drop the class and say, screw you, but hopefully it won't come to that. The second thing that is the biggest difference between high school and college after the IEP is the social scene. Oftentimes youth with disabilities are alienated in high school. They are treated differently, but once you get to college, oh, it is glorious. You start meeting all these new people that you never knew existed. You start being able to have interactions, go on dates with other people who are very much like you and you start to realize that this world is so much larger than just that small Podunk high school that you went to or if you went to a large Podunk high school, but you realize that there is a larger world out there and so many options and so many things. And you really get to meet new people and explore new things just like all persons who go to college, but I would say it's especially different for a person with a disability because there weren't very many people like you when you were in high school. So those are the two biggest differences. >> PAUL: All right. The next question is for Rachael Dorrman. And what is the Department of Labor doing to help improve the outcomes for youth with disabilities in education or employment? >> RACHAEL: Thank, Paul, for that question. Like I said, I work for the Office of Disability Employment Policy which is a small policy shop in the Department of Labor. We're about five years old which is pretty much infancy in federal government terms. And specifically I work on transition issues for all youth, including youth with disabilities. And we define youth as ages 16 to 24. And we help to improve outcomes through a couple of ways I'm going to talk about three ways. The first is we do a lot of collaboration since we're a really small agency, we have relatively small budget. We try to work behind the scenes working with a lot of other federal agencies to bring the youth issue and transition issue and how to best serve youth with disabilities in their programs and services. And a lot of times it's things that happen behind the scenes that maybe you would never hear about like another office in the Department of Labor, for example, the employment and training administration which houses programs like job Corps you may have heard of that will be issuing guidance to all of their staff and we'll explain the accommodations processor whatever issue that they are working on the guidance and we'll be able to get the appropriate language and resources into those documentations. Another example of collaboration is that we are working with a number of federal agencies and nonprofit organizations for a youth development and leadership summit because we think youth development and leadership is an important issue and we're in the process of developing an action plan and that can be applied at the state, and national level. And your president has been actively helping me with this conference. So kudos to Stacy if she's on the call. The second thing that odep does is research and demonstration. We do that through some grant funding, but also through our technical assistance center and a lot of our research is based on something called the guideposts for success. And if you want to find out more information or actually read the guidepost, you can just Google it. I did it today just to make sure and it's the first thing that comes up. So you can Google guideposts for success and basically what that is is what all youth need for a successful transition. And the way we like to look at it is what all youth need and then what youth with disabilities may need in addition to that and it is a really nice way to look at all the evidence-based research and I'll just tell you the categories of the guidepost and if you want to learn more again for the sake of timing you can Google it. The first guidepost is school-based preparatory experiences, which are all the things you need in school. The second guidepost is career preparation and work-based learning. So that's the soft skills, internships, guest speakers, job shadowing, that sort of thing. The third is the youth development and youth leadership. Obviously participating in the National Youth Leadership Network and calls like this is part of your development process. The fourth is connecting activities which are the supports and services that may be your school doesn't offer but you can find out in the community like where to find assistive technology or transportation services and then the last guidepost is family involvement and supports, which means that we have to work with families and your parents and involve them through the process of transition. So the first thing we do is collaboration. The second is research and demonstration and then finally the third category is through practice. We support programs like the National Youth Leadership Network which I'm sure you're all familiar with and then programs like the workforce recruitment program which is an internship program for college students with disabilities to participate in internships all over the country. We coordinate the database in Washington D. C. There is also the Washington center internship program which we fund and allow scholarships for college students to come to Washington to do an internship and take courses and it's almost like studying abroad in D. C. So that's my answer for that question and if you want more information on how to find out more about these programs, we can probably talk about it during the question and answer session. >> PAUL: All right, thank you very much. The next question will be going to Jamie Watts and this question is is higher education really that important in getting a job? >> JAMIE: Well, that's a great question. Thank you so much for that. I would come at that from a couple of different angles. We've talked a lot on this call about the importance of going to college and certainly going to a traditional four year school does offer a wide variety of career opportunities, but this track may not be the most appropriate for everyone. Some people may benefit from attending a two-year program or getting their associate's degree or going to a trade school. What I think is most important is continuing to learn beyond high school so that you have a marketable skill for a perspective employer. You know, in my role as the account manager here with bender consulting services, I review resumes and openings with different hiring managers in all kind of different areas, I. T, finance, accounting, general business, human resources and just general business opportunities and those openings that they have require a wide range of educational backgrounds, whether it's a four year bachelor's degree, an associates degree, a mix of technical training and hands-on experience so really the amount or the type of educational experience that you pursue really depends on your interests and what your ultimate career goal is. And that varies from person to person. So, thank you for that. >> PAUL:Thank you. The next question will be going to Michael Murray, and the question is -- it's actually a two part question. How early should we start talking about the issues of transition to education and employment, and should we start at different ages? And should we start at different ages, and if so, should we take different approaches to talk about the subject? >> MIKE: Okay, great. I'm going to answer all of that kind of in a three-part process. I think that when it comes to transition, I see a lot of problems -- well, I can talk about that in another question, but the things that need to be done, is in elementary school there needs to be a large amount of encouragement. This is the first stage. You need to show them what is out there, encourage them, especially youth with disabilities need to see that there are other youth with disabilities who have achieved great things, awesome things, and even people that, you know, we would consider -- you know, maybe not a doctor, but maybe they are happy and they are working. You know, we have to show them successful people in society. And this needs to be an encouragement to them and it needs to have a positive outlook. The second stage -- and I would say that this needs to be somewhere in middle school. You know, starting with middle school, maybe the early parts or the latter parts of elementary school would be exposure and exploration. So at this point you have to start exposing them to different kinds of jobs, different kinds of things. And I would say the best way to do this is you need to show them what's out there. And then you need to find out what do they want to do? What are they interested in? What do they like? And at this stage I would say don't worry about what they can or cannot do, just throw that out the window. Because oftentimes what practically people consider a person with a disability is able to do, they oftentimes far exceed that. So what we need to do is we have to look at what they want to do and then find ways to expose them to it, to let them explore it and let them look at it in a deeper way and we have to set high goals. If they say that all that they want to do is something that really doesn't -- doesn't go up to their standard, then we have to say, well, hey, you want to think about this? That's a good job and maybe you will end up doing that but let's look a little bit higher. So the second stage is exposure and exploration. So they get exposed to different jobs. They explore them. They look at them.and they find out what it would take to achieve those things. And the third thing -- and I would say this is more towards high school, but you still are exposing them and you're still letting them explore and you're still encouraging them. You still have high goals, but now you start throwing in, okay, what are the issues? What are some of the things that you're going to face if you choose to take that route? For example, I have a learning disability in reading and written expression. Going to college for me is not an easy thing because you have to write a lot of papers. That's an issue. I have to look at that. What are the things that I'm going to face? What are the obstacles that I'm going to have to overcome? And I would say especially for teachers and parents, if there are any teachers and parents on this call, I would encourage you not to shoot down their dreams so quickly, not to say you can't do this, but instead to say, okay, there are some issues there. Here is how I can help you. Here is how I can make you achieve it or help you achieve it, and then allow them to fail. If it's -- if they fail, everybody fails. I think a lot of times persons with disabilities aren't allowed the luxury of finding out what they can't do. They are only told what they can do and I don't think that that's quite right. So I think if you take it in this three step process, it can really help young people, but it has to start early. You know, this question talks about what age it would start. I think you can start as early as kindergarten. You bring in a fireman for career day to show them, hey, look at this cool fireman. Why not bring in a person with a disability, let them see, wow, this person with a disability has overcome amazing obstacles and also is an amazing person because of their disability, not in spite of it. So if you go through that three-step process, that's encouragement, exposure and exploration and then the last thing is you're adding in some of the problems and how they can achieve it practically. >> PAUL: Thank you very much, Michael. And it's my understanding that we are now joined by Chelsea Tobin, so if we can divert for just a moment, we can get to her introduction. Chelsea, can you introduce yourself? >> CHELSEA: Hello, I'm sore ry I'm late. It's knowing here in South Dakota. Imagine that. I was driving from the town an hour from here and the roads were awful, awful. I'm so sorry I'm late. Anyway, my name is Chelsea Tobin. I'm deaf, both ears and I'm using sign language for communication. Right now I'm using an interpreter named Kelly. Anyway, so (inaudible). My major is deaf education and elementary education. And my major, as Kelly is interpreting. So that's all. >> PAUL: Thank you, Chelsea. The next question we will ask you, Chelsea. What are the services that can help get a person an education? >> CHELSEA: There are many services available, vocational rehabilitation to name one. They are able to assist you throughout your college career and they are able -- available to pay for part of your college tuition. And in my case, pay for part of interpreting fees. It depends on your disability. Disability services at my college provide note takers and interpreting services to accommodate my education. It is very rare to find a qualified interpreter, especially where I live in a desolate area in the middle of nowhere. My parents had to go to the nearest big city which is three hours away to advertise me in order to find an interpreter to work with me. So they helped me through my education. It depends on how you look at it. They didn't really get me an education, but they helped me through my education. >> PAUL: Okay, next question is for Rachael Dorrman. How are accommodations different in employment and education? How does one go about requesting and receiving those accommodations? >> RACHAEL: Thanks, Paul, that's a good question and actually just one more comment to make. I thought your response to the last question was great about having experience of failure and just to add on that just learning how to take risks. I think that was something I wish I got when I was growing up. It's okay to take risks. I thought that was a great response. Now to answer my question, how are accommodations different in employment and education? And I think they are very different. It's difficult to go into an employer's office and say that I need extended time on tests or a note taker because it's a totally different type of job being in school, being a student than the working world. So for example I'm visually impaired. So reading the black board in class was really difficult for me. Luckily, I don't have to do that for work, for my current job, but oftentimes I do go to conferences and have to read a PowerPoint on the screen. And so now I use a hand-held monocular, but I wouldn't have been able to use that in school because it's hard to take detailed notes and do that at the same time. And that was something I learned over my experience in working. And I think that internships, you know, are obviously important to gain working skills and learn about the jobs that you might want to do in the future, but it's also important because it can help you learn about what your accommodation needs are in the work environment. This is your opportunity to test different types of accommodations depending on the specific work assignment. For example, we've had a lot of interns in our office specifically I'm thinking of a few with learning disabilities, and so our office has lots of cubicles. So sometimes it's not the most quiet environment if you're trying to write a document or a letter or read something. And so we've suggesting to our interns that they find a quiet place to go and read, whether it's the library in our building or, you know, find an empty office and they were surprised that we would let them go off and do that. But we said as long as you tell us where you're going to be, and that's what works for them. So that's kind of another example of why I think internships are really important. As far as where to find out information about what types of accommodations you might need in the work environment, the job accommodations network is a resource that ODEP provides that you can call or E-mail the Job Accommodation Network, sometimes ms known as Jan to find out about different accommodations. So the job accommodations phone number is 1-800-526-7234. That's their voice number, and their TTY number is 1-877-781-9403. Or again you can Google in and find their website and they have a ton of useful fact sheets and information that would be a great resource. In addition to that, just hot off the press actually today, ODEP -- and I'm going to give you our website -- just released a new fact sheet on how to provide accommodations for youth with mental health needs or transitioning youth with mental health needs. And how to think about if you have a mental health need and how it might translate to the work environment. So that website is www.dol.gov/odep. Again, you can Google ODEP and find our home page. Does that answer your question? >> PAUL: Yes. Chelsea, do you have anything else to add? >> CHELSEA: Yeah, to be honest, I have an experience of working in a hearing setting where I require an interpreter as an office assistant. The camp is the only deaf operated resort in Madison, South Dakota. It's about an hour and 15 minutes I.D. I never need to think about accommodations except when hearing guests come over. It's a pen and paper method from there. I gave an entire tour one time with a stack of blank papers on a clip board. From the Main Street job setting I'll be requesting for an interpreter for meetings, events or conferences on a daily basis. I'll conduct international sign language or better known as gestures with the other co-workers or communicate through paper and pen writing method back and forth. I guess we have to be flexible and compromise. It's what they say about getting married, you have to be able to compromise. It's not any different with your job. The job -- it depends on where you were requested from and you will have to go through your boss. Maybe I'm guessing here from a lack of experience in this field, and request for accommodations for specific reasons. Education is all at one place. Disability services, enough said. I've covered this with the previous question. Then I'll talk about that. >> PAUL: Okay, the next question will be going back to Chelsea, and what could the education system do to better prepare you for employment? >> CHELSEA: with my experiences, I had an incredible parental support at home. Teachers that are understanding and administration that understands as well. However, this wasn't always the case. I remember when I was younger, my parents would have to fight the school board as they perceived Valerie my interpreter as an unnecessary expense. They didn't know how it would make a difference in my education. Later when I graduated from school, my former educator told my dad we did an excellent job and the right resources are definitely needed to achieve. It's up to you to figure out had a the right resources are or to achieve the maximum potential you have. >> PAUL: All right, thank you. This is just to let everybody know that any websites or phone numbers that will be given out on tonight's call will be available on our website after the call if anybody would want to look back for the phone numbers or websites after the call. And there are also notes being taken on tonight's call, so those will also be available after the call as well. The next question is for Michael Murray, and the question is do you think that all parties are typically involved in the discussion around transition in education and employment and what if there is disagreement about the course of action? >> MIKE: Good question, Paul. And I would like to say no, I do not think students, teachers, parents are all equally involved in the transition process. As a matter of fact -- I hope I don't offend anyone -- but being a special education teacher and looking at the transition process, I think most of the time it's a joke. It's one sheet of paper, and on that one sheet of paper typically -- and it starts somewhere around middle school -- and typically they ask the student a group of questions and just get their answers as quickly as possible so that they can go about their day and go about doing other things. Most of the time -- now, accordingly, it should be that all parties are included, but all the parties are usually not included. Most of the time it's just the teacher and the kid, and they try -- you know, the teacher asks them these questions and they answer it and to be honest most of the time unless you have a really awesome teacher, the teacher doesn't even care. You know, just writes down whatever so it can be done and get over with. So they are not on equal standings. What I think really needs to happen is there needs to be parents and young people who stand up and say, you know -- and I think this goes back to my first question -- there have to be some young people and some parents who stand up like Chelsea's parents did and say, no, no, this is not how it's going to be. My young person will have a good transition and you're going to offer him some ways to transition, some things that can help him transition and some ideas on where to go in this transition process. So not only -- so then it kind of changes from the teacher really being the one who is in charge of this process to the student being the one who is really leading this process and the teacher giving ideas of where the student can go and then the parents offering support on how to achieve those goals. And whenever -- I'll just tell you my own personal story. Whenever it came time for my transition, I'm sitting around and I have everybody is in the IEP meeting. This is my senior year, and we start talking about transition, and all the teachers were there that knew me so well, knew how hard I had worked, knew I was involved with everything, knew everything related to me, my age, how I was president of so many different clubs, all this sort of thing, and then there was a psychologist there who had gone through my paperwork and my reeval process. So they came to the transition and I told them, hey, I think I want to go to school and be a teacher. Well, the guy who had just got done doing my exam who did not know me, he had just spent an hour with me going through some different kinds of tests said, well, I think you need to start thinking about more practical things because according to the scores that I have in front of me, there is no way that you could ever graduate from a four year university. Well, you know, obviously I was crushed and what crushed me even more was all the teachers sitting around just nodded their heads in agreement, not because I wasn't an A./B. honor roll student, but simply because the expert said that was the most practical answer. You know, I'll be graduating in December. I have a 3.46. I hope to have a 3.5 in college. I'm graduating with a special education degree. I teach kids reading and writing and that's my disability. So, you know, try coming back to when there is a disagreement, oftentimes the expert is the one who gets the final say. It should be the other way around. The student should have the final say, the parent should step up back up their young person and say my young person wants this and I agree with them. You should stand up and say screw what's practical. I'm going to go for my dreams. I'm going to go for what I want. So I hope that answer your question. >> PAUL: Thank you, Michael. The next question is for Jamie. And the question is what do you think is the biggest asset currently helping youth with disabilities achieve success full outcomes in employment or education? >> JAMIE: That is a great question and I was thing about this and there are a lot of things available, but to me what I think is the biggest asset is our network to one another, whether it's being networked through formal groups like NYLN or by informally extending ourselves to other youth with disabilities and other disability leaders within the community, that's how we find out about things and resources that are available to us. A couple of those things were mentioned, you know, that's how we find out about programs like the workforce recruitment program for college students with disabilities or that's how we find out about the congressional internship program or we can share ideas and bounce off strategies to one another and say, hey, I have this problem or I have this challenge, this is what I'm thinking about doing. What would you do? You know, to our friends and colleagues in the disability community. Also, as someone who actively recruits people with disabilities for competitive employment, I am routinely referred candidates from contacts across the community and I myself actually came to be employed at bender consulting services because I met our CEO Joyce bender at a disability function. So never when I met her almost five years ago at this disability event through a network did I think that she would ask me to be the account manager for her largest customer in Washington D. C, and take on a significant role doing her communication efforts, sending out to our youth contacts the weekly press release for a radio show, disability matters with Joyce Bender. She said, Jamie, I really want you -- after meeting you at this event, I really want you to take on an active role in our communications and get the youth perspective on some of the guests that are on our radio show. So can you send out your -- send out a press release to your youth contacts. So, really, networking I think is our most valuable resource because that's how -- down, that's how we come to our employment opportunities, that's how when we're ploughing to a different area of the country to take a job or go to school that we find out what's the best place to live? What's the best area? What's the most accessible housing that's available? You know, what are strategies for living independently and getting involved in community activities? Or pursuing higher education, these are things that we gain access to by making sure that we're plugged in and that we extend ourselves to people so that they can provide us feedback. So being a network to each other is what I think. >> PAUL: Chelsea, do you have any other thoughts? >> CHELSEA: Yes, I think attitude is the most important. You'll be facing other people that will tell you you can't do a certain things. These people can be your boss, your parents (inaudible) you have to believe in yourself. Know that you are capable and prove them wrong by keeping strong in what you believe. With that, you'll succeed. >> PAUL: Thank you, Chelsea. The next question is for Michael Murray, and what is the best way to get all parties involved and interested in achieving transition and outcomes with regard to education and employment? >> MIKE: Let's see, what's the best way to get all parties involved and interested in achieving transition outcomes? I think I would like to let this go to Jamie and then just back her up on it. Is that okay, Paul? >> PAUL: That's great. >> JAMIE: Well, I want to start by -- it's funny, Michael, that you would volley to me because the first thing that I'm going to say is that Michael raised some excellent points about the IEP making sure that the youth with the disability takes as much a leadership role as possible and structures it around their interests and talents because when you take on a leadership role in your IEP, and you say this is what I want, this is what I need, this is what the plan is, you take ownership of those goals and it's more likely because you feel a sense of responsibility that you're going to be more comfortable with the plan and that your successful outcomes are going to be achieved. So my first thing would be to make sure you're active in your IEP process, and the other thing is, you know, as far as other parties are concerned during the IEP process, if students need to rely on other stakeholders in the process, whether that's teachers or parents, they can do that; but parents and teachers I think really need to be educated on accommodations in the workplace and what's the difference between accommodations in the workplace versus what's accommodations in the educational setting. And then also when you move to employment, to look at what do employers really look for? I mean, we go to college and we try to secure these jobs and we get all set, but when you get where the rubber meets the road for employment opportunities, what is that hiring manager actually looking for when they look at someone's resume or when they interview someone? So if we can Ed indicate our parents and our teachers about what those true expectations are, then they can help their youth to advocate effectively. Maybe not necessarily advocate for them, but teach those youth to advocate for themselves based on the training that they have. >> PAUL: Michael Murray, do you have anything to add? >> MIKE: Yeah, just to back that up, I think you hit a really good point, Jamie, about education and educating both the teachers and the parents about what the student may be needing, some of the things that would help them and I think a lot of times people don't get involved just because they don't know that it's an issue or they don't -- they don't realize what can I do to help? But when you see that it is an issue and that there is something that you can do and it's a big world out there that you can help these young people achieve to, then that will get them more involved and then to get the student more involved, you know, I think high expectations, if they think they can achieve great things, then they'll be more interested in this process than if they just think that they are going toned up doing something that they don't like for the rest of their lives. So just to back up what maple Jamie said, I think she did an outstanding job. >> PAUL: Thank you very much. Before I get to the last question, I would like to let you all know that if you are joining the conference by telephone, that the question and answer -- well, this goes for everybody on the conference, whether you're on the telephone or the web, but if you're joining by phone, make sure you have your questions ready because after this next question, we'll begin your questions and answers. For those of you joining on the web, E-mail your questions to Lisa McMahon and her address is mcmahonl@pdx.edu. And now for the final question, this will be going to Rachael Dorrman and the question is what do you think the biggest challenge that youth with disabilities face in achieving successful outcomes in education or employment? >> RACHAEL: Thanks, Paul, and of course the question comes right after Jamie and Michael's question because it's really apropos and Michael pretty much took part of his conversation out of my answer, but I just kind of want to respond to your question that someone who is actually looking for an intern this summer currently in terms of what an employer wants, Jamie, because I think that that would be something that maybe people on the phone would be interested in knowing. I think that employers want the technical skills, the skills that you would need to be able to perform the job, whether it means the education degree and the expertise that you need, but also just as equally as important is the soft skills, and since I wasn't addressed today I think I needed to make a plug for understanding how to work in teams, how to communicate, how to take initiative, the networking piece, knowing how to manage your time and how to dress appropriately for the workplace are all things that we're finding at the Department of Labor where the employers are telling us that that's what they want from they're merging workforce and that's what they feel like a lot of young people aren't Frey paired for when they get out of school. And so I just kind of wanted to add that to your comment. But to answer what do you think the biggest challenges are for youth with disabilities in achieving successful outcomes in education or employment? Michael, I totally agree with you, I think high expectations are a huge problem, from family, from teachers, but also from the system, from a lot of systems that youth with disabilities can only go into certain careers, the social services careers, the direct labor careers, and I think the expectation needs to start really early that there are many opportunities beyond kind of what you see, a teacher, social service, social worker, and that there are endless opportunities. And to complement that I wanted to give a resource because I think along with high expectations disclosure is also a challenge. Disclosing your disability in the classroom is a safe environment where you'll receive accommodations and to think about how that's going to apply when you transition to the work world is something I think a lot of young people struggle with and I know I struggled with that myself and how when is the appropriate time and how to do that. We put together a disclosure tool kit and if you Google the disability disclosure, you'll find a workbook where you can go through the process of how to disclose when it comes to the educational setting, the employment setting and then the community setting because in social situations, that's a totally different game, you know, how to disclose when you're dating or meeting new friends versus to a new employer versus school. So I hope that the workbook is a good resource for someone who is interested in trying to think about how to disclose. >> PAUL: Thank you, Rachael. Chelsea, do you have anything to add? >> CHELSEA: I do agree with Michael because -- to keep advancing on the IEP goals and be really realistic. I have to agree with him completely, and to close up, I just finish add presentation over in another town, Madison, for (inaudible) and for youth with disabilities. My big advice for youth with disabilities is to get the advantage of the resource available for them. So get the resources available for them if at all possible. That's my biggest piece of advice for them. I have to make sure you know that. That's probably the most important. Just to add my two cents. >> PAUL: All right, thank you very much. Well, this ends the speaker session now and we will begin our participant session in which the speakers will answer questions asked by the audience. The phone lines are now open to the participants. Before asking the question, please state your name. If you have a certain speaker that you would like to answer your question, please say who you want to answer the question. You have four choices, again, the speak speakers for tonight are Rachael door man, Michael Murray, Chelsea Tobin and Jamie Watts. Now, it's 25 minutes after the hour so there is 30 minutes left and we will try to get to as many questions as possible. Now, if we run out of time because the teleconference does end at 9:00 p.m. earn the contact info for speakers will be available on our website. So if we run out of time, don't fret and we'll try to get to as many questions as possible. So with that I'll now turn the call over to the ILRU operator who will tell you which buttons to use on your telephone to ask your questions. Thank you. >> OPERATOR: Thank you, Paul. At this time we will open the floor for questions. If you would like to ask a question, please press the star key followed by the 1 key on your touch tone phone now. Questions will be taken in the order in which they were received, and if at any time you would like to remove yourself from the questioning queue, press star 2. Again, any time during the questioning session, press star 1 to ask a question. Our first question comes from Alicia Payne. >> CALLER: Before I ask a question, in college I was a student representative for the Oklahoma association of higher education in disabilities and this is for any of the speakers to answer. Do you believe it is important for the student with a disability to become involved in their state's chapter and could those organizations help with the transition process? >> RACHAEL: Hi, Alicia. This is Rachael. I think that it's important for young people with disabilities do get involved period. And whether that means that it's their student disability support services or student disability group on campus or another student organization that's not disability-related, as long as they feel like they are getting involved, I think it's a choice for them; but I think that really getting involved in leadership opportunities in general is very important. >> PAUL: Anybody else want to tackle that question? >> CHELSEA: This is Chelsea. I agree with Rachael. I agree with you strongly because I'm very, very active in the deaf community here in South Dakota. Yes, it's very important. My dad always told me it's always a good resume builder. It's very important. Your future employer will see how much you're involved and it will impress them and you're not passive and they'll see that and you're not a passive disabled person. And it will be a big advantage for you. So please get involved. >> PAUL: All right. We'll take another phone question and then we'll go to two web questions and then we'll alternate back and forth between questions from the phone lines and then questions from the website. So if we could have another phone question. >> OPERATOR: Okay, our next question comes from Steve. >> CALLER: Hello, I'm Steven. I am a youth leader and also a junior in high school. I have a question concerning OVR. At our conferences, we constantly talk about like what they can do, but then when I go ask my OVR counselor, they say they can't do the same thing. I know it varies between like which area you're in, but is there something we can do about that? I also have another question when you're done answering that question. >> Before we get to the question, can somebody define what OVR is? >> CALLER: I can. >> Okay, Steven, what's OVR. >> CALLER: Occupational vocational rehabilitation. Sorry. >> No, it's fine. We just wanted to clarify that. That's perfectly fine. We just wanted to have somebody clarify that, but thank you. So did somebody want to tackle that question? >> MIKE: This is Michael. I don't have too much to say, but deep down inside of me, part of me says just fight them. You know, if you got to get in a fight, get in a fight. Go for it. You know, stand up for yourself. Go for it. You know, get what you can get. Maybe that's too simple of an answer, sorry. >> CHELSEA: Hello, this is Chelsea. Okay, I agree with Michael. I don't mean silence, but -- >> MIKE: Absolutely right. >> CHELSEA: You just went to your conference, right, about OVR? And you get that paperwork to prove you can do that, but they say you can't and you bring that paperwork and show them and try to have some parent who can support you. Better you have family supporting you, but whatever works best for you, but I agree with Michael completely. Bring proof so you can fight and why not. >> CALLER: Fight who? >> RACHAEL: High, Steven, this is Rachael. I have another suggestion for you that might help a little bit more concrete. I was really lucky hen I went through vocational rehabilitation because I had a really good counselor who found kind of loop holes and ways to provide me services when I was still in elementary school and middle school. Oftentimes vocational rehabilitation doesn't like to take on cases for young people because their ultimate goal is employment and if you're planning to go on to college, they'll have you for many years in their molds so to speak, and is best advice I could have for you is to go to a different counselor and try and find a champion for young people within that organization. And it might take some time and some perseverance, but I think eventually if you can find a counselor that is willing to at least speak with you that eventually you'll be able to get services. >> CALLER: Yes, this isn't the other question, but my problem is the counselor, she's pretty good, but the boss -- doesn't want to go up against the boss and the boss says there are certain things and I guess she can't like fight her so (inaudible). >> RACHAEL: Maybe this is a conversation we can have one on one after the call and I can maybe help you a little bit more concretely if you'd like. >> CALLER: Also -- well now I have like two other questions, but can I please continue? >> PAUL: One more question. >> CALLER: One more. Okay, I'll limit it. I'm trying to decide which one I want to use. Okay, like you say address the teachers and people in your IEP meeting, like if you don't agree with it, but when you address them, things get hairy and like they seem to fight back and how do you suggest like addressing it without making that sort of situation? Because that can make a very unpleasant high school. >> JAMIE: This is Jamie. You know, this is something that I really had to work on. I had a very supportive teaching environment for the most part, but at the same time it's something that as I got older I had to work on being just over in general more direct as a person and advocating for what I want. So if somebody says something that you don't like in an IEP situation, you know, for a second, try to look at it from their perspective and I would start out by saying, you know, in this situation I can see that your concerns are a, b and c, and while I see that's correct, I feel that we should go in this other direction and these are my reasons for that. And be very firm in the reasons that you present. Know going in that -- I mean, you might be able to tell going in this is going to be an issue, for instance. I want to take this driver's Ed class. That's what I did when I was a sophomore. So I want to take this drivers Ed class and certain people don't feel like I should take that class, but I feel that I want to take that class. And this is why -- I want to be as independent as possible and, you know, this is what's available to me and what ended up happening is that I took that class and I had accommodations in the way that I took the class, but I did take the class. So if you are very firm and sort of direct and very confident in the reasons why you want to do something, then moving your agenda forward will be a lot easier. >> CALLER: Did you find like when you're firm though, did they ever get defensive or is that just my school? >> JAMIE: Defensive how? >> CALLER: Like -- I don't know how to explain it. Like they feel like you're attacking them, like you're imposing things. >> JAMIE: Well, everyone feels to some degree I think when you present something that is in contradiction to what they feel, you know, at lease to a certain degree people will feel attacked, but the way you present yourself is not trying to attack them or be -- being assertive versus being aggressive. That's something at Bender we talk about in our training being assertive versus being aggressive. You can present the same points in two different ways and a assert yourself, this is what I want and I feel very strongly this is what I want and why. Versus you should give me this and that's all there is to it. I mean, that's two different veins of the same point and it's how you present yourself. It may or may not change the outcome, but it will decrease the likelihood that you will experience some negative impacts and if you do, you will have always been in the right because you took the high road and conducted yourself in a professional manner during that meeting. >> CALLER: All right. Thank you very much. And like I said previously, if anybody has -- >> PAUL: if you want to continue a conversation after the call, we'll provide contact information for the speakers and that will be posted on our website. Next we'll go to Lisa and she has some questions on the website. >> LISA: Hi, this is from a parent and it says my daughter is covered under a 004 plan at the high school she attends. I have not pursued coverage under an IEP. What are the pros and cons of sticking with only 504 coverage? The school denying her a tutor for a few hours a week. Can they do that? >> PAUL: Who would like to tackle that one? >> MIKE:This is Michael. I'll give it a shot. It is a good question and there are certain issues related to quote-unquote labeling your child or just staying under a 504. I would say if your young person needs a tutor, then he or she needs an IEP. An IEP is designed to help a young person achieve to the educational standard that's been put out there and if they are not achieving and it is because they have a disability and there is a significant difference between them and their peers, then -- or between what they are performing and what are capable of per fuming, then go for it, see if you can get -- get an IEP. I would say if you can't get an IEP because of, you know, they give them certain tests and because sometimes the numbers just don't meet up, I would go and ask personally to maybe one of the teachers, maybe ask one of the special ed teachers, one of the teachers who really likes your young person or your child and just say, you know, they are really struggling with this. I can't help them, would you be willing to let them stay 30 minutes after school and help out? And I think if you approach it in that way, most teachers are going to go -- you know, I'm willing to give an extra 30 minutes to help this young person because I want to see them succeed. Those will be my two suggestions to you. If you feel comfortable, go ahead and try see if you can get an IEP, but if you can't, the road of less resistance and the road that may be most successful is just asking some teachers to spend a little bit of extra time because that's their job. They should do that for all students -- disability or no disability. >> PAUL: Okay, thank you very much. Lisa, next question. >> LISA: This question is from Nathan. It says I'm interested in learning more about the educational choices or trends, majors "eventually career choices of successful people with disabilities. Does that make sense. >> PAUL: Can you repeat it. >> LISA: I'm interested about learning more about Ted indication al choices or trends of successful people with disabilities, either majors or career choices. >> PAUL: Anybody want to take a stab at that one? >> RACHAEL: This is Rachael. I'm not totally familiar with the trends specifically related to people with disabilities. The Department of Labor has released their high growth industry and what are the jobs that are going to be needed in the next coming years and a lot of those fields are in the technology related fields in addition to nursing and engineering and a lot of the skills that are required for technology. So if you're trying to figure out what area am I interested in, and I think trying to learn new technology, you can't go wrong. You can't go wrong there. And as far as I guess me personally, I grew up in New Jersey and I went to college in Washington D. C. at George Washington University because I wanted access to transportation, accessible transportation, and it was enough of having people drive me around and picking me up places and I wanted to be able to get around on my own. That was the number one reason for choosing an urban area and I majored in human services which is like nonprofit management for undergraduate degrees and I received an internship through the workforce recruitment program which pretty much led to every other job I've had. And so I'm a true believer in experiencing different types of jobs to really see what you're interested in to find out what you like and what you don't like to determining your career goals and it's really okay to change your mind. I forget the number, but I think it's something around -- our generation of young people will probably experience seven careers in their lifetime and I think that's pretty cool. I'm kind of looking forward to the next few. >> PAUL: Thank you very much, Rachael. >> CHELSEA: This is Chelsea, I'd like to answer, too. >> PAUL: Okay, yes. >> CHELSEA: I agree with -- (no audio) it's a good idea to start an internship so you know where your interests are, so you know what to major in. Right now I'm doing a practicum for the first two years of college in the education field. So I know, yes, this is for sure inside what I really want to do. I want to become a teacher. Also I'm working with different transitional projects for disabilities -- for disabled the students in high school and to college. So I'm helping them transition and I'm working with them for several years and I enjoy that very much and I enjoy what I do because I get involved. So if you become involved when everywhere your interests lie, and chances are that you will find a job you want. >> PAUL: Thank you very much. Now we'll go back to Leslie with another phone question. >> OPERATOR: Thank you, our next phone question comes from J. B. Davis. >> CALLER: Yes, this is J. T. Davis in Perry, Florida. I'm a member of the youth council on disability. Michael, what is the best way -- I have parent support on different IEPs and different things in the school system. Who is the best person that you think is a good person that people with disabilities that don't have parent support can speak to and have support behind them? >> MIKE: So who is the biggest advocate when it comes -- if you don't have parent support, is that your question? >> CALLER: Yes. >> MIKE: Well, you know -- anyway, I feel very strongly about this matter and I think this is something that students, even if they have supportive parents miss this vast, wide resource and that is the community of individuals who are just like you. It's a community of individuals with strong backgrounds, with heritage, with history, with successes, with failures, with fights of their own and that is the disability community. We're a wide array of people, but we are people who I genuinely believe deep down care about each other and empathize with each other like no one else can. With that being said, sometimes parents are not the biggest advocate. Sometimes they can be a road block. I've seen that in a number of cases. I have a good friend who her parents for a number of years wanted her to be healed of her disability. I almost cried when I heard that. They love her. They care for her. They want to see her do great things, but this particular part of their -- that person, their disability, that defines them as much as anything else they didn't love. They didn't respect -- in fact they hated it and wished it would go away. But that is not who we are. Having a disability doesn't make you inferior to anyone else. As a matter of fact, it can be an empowering issue, and with that being said, there are a group of people who have been empowered by having a disability and who are following in the footsteps of those before us who have fought this fight and said, you know what, having a disability is an asset to me. I'm proud of it and I'm going to stand up and tell people about it because I think that it's a good thing. It's as wonderful as being a different color, whether it's black, whether it's Asian or whether you have a disability, it is something -- or whether you're a woman or a male, whatever the things about you that define you, disability is one of those wonderful, wonderful things. So your biggest asset, if you don't have your parents, and maybe even a bigger asset even if you do have your parents, is the community of persons with disability that surround you not only on a local level or on a state level, but even on a national level and especially youth with disability. We're coming together. We are making a difference. We are fighting this fight. We do have our own issues and things that we want to see get done, things that we think are worth fighting for and we're fighting for them. So that's your biggest asset and, you know, I know there are tons of youth who are willing to fight for other youth and there are grown ups who are mentors to these youth that are willing to help people along. So even in the IEP process, maybe you realize that my parents don't support me and neither does the IEP team. So you go out and you find somebody -- you go to a Center for Independent Living. You go to other people with disabilities in the disability community and you say, hey, I may not achieve my full potential if I don't have somebody to stand next to me and fight with me because I can't do this alone. And none of us can do this alone. We can only do this as a community of people, as a group of people who are strong and stand up for themselves. So your biggest alley, whether you have your parents or not, is definitely the community that surrounds you. >> PAUL: Thank you, Michael. >> CHELSEA: This is Chelsea. Hello. I'll be short, I promise. It's a big supporter -- your biggest support comes from who you trust, who you trust the most. Maybe your VR, maybe they help you a lot, maybe they know how you can get through your disability or your friends who see you as an equal. They will stand up with you, too. I'm sorry that your parents can't really support you, but that's why God loves you and you have to accept that. That's my answer. >> PAUL: Thank you very much, Chelsea. Leslie, do we have another phone question? >> OPERATOR: Our next question comes from Trevor. >> CALLER: Hello, my first question is for Rachael Dorrman. What are the five guideposts that you mentioned earlier? >> RACHAEL: Hi, I'd be happy to read those to you again and hopefully I'll send a link so that they can be available on the website afterwards if you can't write them down that way. But the first guidepost is school-based preparatory experiences. >> CALLER: So school-based. >> RACHAEL: Those are all things that happen in school. The second guidepost is career preparation and work-based learning experiences. All the things to prepare you for the world of work. The third is youth development and leadership. The fourth is connecting activities. And the fifth is family involvement and supports. Do you have a specific question about one of the guideposts? >> CALLER: No, I forgot about them and so I needed to ask for them once again. >> RACHAEL: No, I know I went through them pretty quickly. There are people who have given full day presentations on these guideposts, so I did go through them pretty quickly. So if you have more questions or if anyone on the call wants to ask me to explain anything after the call, I'd be happy to hear from you. >> CALLER: My next question if you have time is if a boss or a teacher who gives me a bad attitude, what must I do to prove that what I really want or need for my goal and to prove it and to prove how much it matters? >> RACHAEL: Who is that question for? >> CALLER: It was one of the topics -- it was one of the topics that was mentioned and I was wondering what I should do just in case I have to face that kind of situation myself? >> RACHAEL: Michael, do you want to take that one? >> MIKE: Sure. Yeah, I definitely can. So you're asking if you face a teacher with a not such a positive attitude, is that like what you're looking for? >> CALLER: Well, I'm also asking if I have to face a boss that gives that same kind of attitude, I'm just wondering what it is that I must do to prove that -- to prove to them what my disability and my goals are or something like that. >> MIKE: That sounds good. Sounds good, what's your name, sir? >> CALLER: It's Trevor. >> MIKE: All right, Trevor. I would say when you're facing someone with not such a good attitude or a bad attitude, the biggest thing is just to continue to do your work, continue to focus in on what you are good at and continue to work very hard at that and show them that. Say this is what I do well and especially when it comes to teachers. Because oftentimes their poor attitude comes from previous experience, especially with teachers, they may have had a young person who really used their disability as a reason to not do work. So I face this quite a lot, so I make sure to show them, hey, I'm a very hard worker. And I just tell you in college, for example, I choose not to disclose until two or three weeks into the semester simply because I want them to see how hard a worker I am. So I come and I sit in the front of the classroom. I ask lots of questions. I make sure that my stuff is tip top, you know, like every t is crossed, every i is dotted. Not everybody has the choice when to disclose. Some people don't have that choice. I have that choice so I choose to take it just to show them how hard of a worker I am. So if you show them how capable you are and the things that you are good at, oftentimes people are more apt to change their attitude. And sometimes you just have to realize some people just have a bad attitude. They have a bad attitude about everything, you know, and if they choose to have a bad attitude even after you've shown them how capable you are, as long as they are not infringing on you as a person, whether it be your learning or whether it be your work environment, as long as they are not having a significant impact on what you're able to do, I would say just leave them alone. Just say, you know, you've got a bad attitude, you dislike me because I have a disability. That's your choice. You're missing out. It's the same way for someone of a different ethnicity. You know, if somebody dislikes someone because of their color -- well, they have that right, but you know we're not here to try to change your mind, but you're the one that's missing out. So I would take that standpoint. Does that help you any, Trevor? >> CALLER: Thank you. >> JAMIE: This is Jamie. I'd like to touch on the employer part for one second. Because I think that in a lot of ways that can be an intimidating situation because Michael I totally agree with what you're saying, but it can be pretty intimidating when you need something and your boss is the one giving you the push back saying you can't have this or I don't see the justification in this. Because you have to report to that person and that person does your performance review and determines your salary increase and those type of things. So I think what's also important is to look at it from a situation and go, okay, what's the business case or what's the benefit to my boss or my company or, you know, my work product by getting this accommodation or getting this resource? For instance, say you use dragon naturally speaking software or some sort of vision technology to operate your computer, you know, you might get push back and saying this is going to cost too much money. Okay, it's a cost to have it, but what is the benefit to my work product? I can work twice as fast because I have the technology I need, therefore my business output and the quality of my business output is improved because I work faster and I make fewer mistakes. So that my boss, my employer, is a benefit to you because you are diversifying your workforce and you are producing topnotch quality product. >> PAUL: All right. Thank you very much. Unfortunately we are approaching the nine o'clock eastern hour, so the teleconference will be wrapping up here. I just want to remind all our participants that we will make resources available, including the guideposts that Rachael was referring to. I'll offer E-mail addresses and other websites that the speakers might feel helpful to post on our website. And that will be available as soon as possible. And again, thank you all for participating in the call. If you are a young person and are interested in finding out more about how education and employment matters, we want to know if you'd be interested in having a follow-up call to identify areas you're interested in. Also, please remember that there is an NYLN listserv for young people. If you have questions on any topic that are -- if you have questions on any topic, there are lots of individuals that E-mail into the listserv and the topics can go -- the topics are very varied. We hope that you have enjoyed the call and we encourage you to fill out the survey and get involved in the NYLN events, such as the one you were involved in today. We would like to thank ILRU for their support of this call and join us in July for our next teleconference call and webcast. Thank you all for joining us and have a good night.