1 Reasonable Accommodations and Reasonable Modifications in Housing: What These Civil Rights Provisions Are and How To Successfully Use Them. Presenter: Barbara Chandler. >> JACQUIE: Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to today's webcast, Reasonable Accommodations and Reasonable Modifications in Housing: What These Civil Rights Provisions Are and How To Successfully Use Them. The webcast today is being sponsored by the National Institute on Disability, Rehabilitation and Research, NIDRR, who funds your host for today's program, the DBTAC Southwest ADA Center. I'm your moderator, Jacquie Brennan, and I'm with the ILRU project Southwest ADA Center. I will be assisting with today's presentation. Before we get started, I want to go over a couple of housekeeping issues. For those of you on the webcast today, to submit your questions, click the E-mail button that's on your screen or you can E-mail them directly to webcast@ilru.org. By agreement with our speaker today I'm going to be screening the questions and then interrupting her to ask the questions as they come in. If you have any technical difficulties today, please feel free to give us a call at (713)520-0232. Again, thanks for joining us today. Now I'm pleased to present our presenter, Barbara Chandler, with Adaptive Environments. Good afternoon, Barbara. 2 >> BARBARA: Good afternoon. >> JACQUIE: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about Adaptive Environments before we get into the presentation? >> BARBARA: Sure. Let me talk about who gives me my paycheck first and that's Adaptive Environments. It's the private nonprofit organization that's been around for close to 30 years, and we primarily focus on design issues as a way to increase the integration involvement of persons with disabilities and actually all people into the communities. The project that I'm responsible there -- I'm the director of housing projects at Adaptive Environments. I am the manager for the Fair Housing Accessibility First Design and Construction Resource Center. It's a project funded by HUD which is actually the Department of Housing and Urban Development. And we provide technical assistance on the design and construction requirements of the Federal Fair Housing Act. And me personally, I am a person with disabilities, but I've also worked in the field of serving people with disabilities for over 20 years. My primary focus has been in issues of housing and civil rights for persons with disabilities. I also worked on issues involving survivors of domestic violence, low income families and elders. I've been around quite a bit. >> JACQUIE: Okay. All right, well go ahead and get us started then on your presentation about reasonable accommodations and reasonable modifications in housing. >> BARBARA: What I want to be really clear about is what federal law we're talking about. There is a tremendous amount of confusion out there between the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Federal Fair 3 Housing Act. The Federal Fair Housing Act covers in its reasonable accommodation and reasonable modification provisions, it covers all housing. The ADA will only cover a residential setting if it's funded by state or local government or if it has a public accommodation. So if you're talking about a residential setting, and you're talking about the need for a reasonable accommodation, it has to be made under the Federal Fair Housing Act. It cannot be made under the ADA. So that may be the most important information that people can get out of this. The Fair Housing Act was amended in 1988 to include persons with disabilities, and briefly there is two major components to it: One which I really won't get into which is the design and construction requirements. That's covering buildings of four or more residential units, first occupied after March 13th, 1991, and there is seven requirements they have to meet in order to be in compliance. I'm going to be talking about the softer side of the Fair Housing Act this afternoon, which is the nonbricks and mortar issue. And that's where the reasonable accommodation provision is found under Section 804 of the Fair Housing Act of 1988. The way reasonable accommodation is defined is very similar to other types of reasonable accommodation regulations, is that a reasonable accommodation is a request to waive or change policies, practices, procedures, rules or services. They are not automatically granted. They can only be refused if they meet one of two conditions. The first which is most common in housing situations is a refusal because the request is going to cause an undue administrative and financial burden to the housing 4 provider. The second reason is that granting this request would cause a fundamental change to the basic nature of the housing program. The costs for any reasonable accommodations are assumed by the housing provider, not by the person making the request. So it's fairly straightforward. It's also very, very broad. It covers things such as accessible parking spaces, assistive animals, flexible rental payment plans, waiving certain condo practices and policies, things as asking condo association meetings for instance to be moved to an accessible location or having a condo association provide an interpreter. So it's pretty straightforward. And it's also a way of being done in a manner that can be individualized to the needs of the person. Now, the other thing I'll be talking about today is the reasonable modification provision, slightly different under the act, the reasonable modification is a physical alteration to the premises to allow or increase the accessibility and use by a person with a disability. The housing provider must allow this reasonable modification or physical alteration to happen, but the costs are assumed by the person who made the request. Very, very different than what people are used to under Section 504 of ADA, but under Fair Housing, the person who makes the reasonable modification request such as asking for a ramp or the installation of grab bars, the person who makes that request must assume the cost for that. Reasonable modifications cannot be denied by the housing provider, however, the housing provider can mandate that they be done in a 5 professional workmanlike fashion, and that's been interpreted to mean that the reasonable modification must meet any local building codes, fire codes, things of that nature. It can mean that the housing provider requires that it be done by a licensed professional such as a licensed contractor or a licensed electrician. I've also seen it to mean that the professional you use -- a licensed contractor has sufficient levels of insurance in case something goes wrong. So while the housing provider can't reject a reasonable modification, they can have certain conditions built into the process to make sure that their property is protected. The other part of the reasonable modification is that any modification to the interior of the unit, for instance, installation of grab bars, when the person leaves or moves from the property, they can ask the housing provider, that is, can ask that the reasonable modification be restored to its original condition. So they can ask the grab bars to be removed and the holes to be plugged up and that is done at the cost of the person with the disability. If the original reasonable modification was to the exterior, such as a ramp going into the building, could be a reasonable modification that was done to a common use area such as a ramp that might go into a community room, then when the person vacates the premise, they do not have to restore it to its original state. It's only when it's in the interior of the unit. And those are pretty much what is going to go on. Let me tell you on reasonable accommodations, the most typical examples we see -- I sort of went over them briefly -- assistive animals, creating additional accessible parking spaces, having a parking space that would be closer to the entrance of either the person's unit or the 6 building. Typical reasonable modification requests are generally things such as grab bars, handrails, signaling devices and what I mean by signaling devices, that could be a flashing doorbell, it could be asking that a smoke detector have the strobe light on it, ramps, interior door hardware or the widening of a door are also very common reasonable modification requests. Oh, I'm sorry, one reasonable modification thing, very common and extremely important to people with disabilities, particularly those who are recently disabled is how the reasonable accommodation applies to an early termination of a lease. A very common question that we get at Fair Housing First. Someone recently got disabled, a car accident, something of that nature and they cannot go from the hospital back to the unit they formerly lived in because they are now disabled and they have a lease and if they break the lease early, there is all sorts of penalties. Some leases we've seen mean that the person has to pay for the full monetary value of the lease, some it's just a penalty. A person with a disability can ask for an early termination of a lease with no penalty or any financial burden as a reasonable accommodation. Sometimes individuals in that situation will ask to be relocated to a more accessible unit because they can't go to the original one and in cases of eviction -- not always eviction for cause -- very common that people ask for a reasonable accommodation so that instead of a 30 day notice, that they can extend the time because of the reality of how difficult it is to locate suitable housing if you have a disability. I'd be willing to take any questions we have right now. Okay, there 7 are no questions? >> JACQUIE: I'm sorry, yes, there is a question. A certain person who has a hearing disability wants to purchase a house. If she needs to hire an interpreter to communicate with a builder or the construction company, can the builder be required to pay for that? >> BARBARA: Yes, that would be a reasonable accommodation request where you ask for an interpreter to be part of the negotiation process so that the house is built to your specifications. On interpreters, it can get tricky on housing situations. Sometimes people say they would prefer that they should have written communication back and forth. I also advise people to look at what is the nature of the negotiation that has to happen. If you're asking for something really quick and maybe writing notes back and forth will do it. If you're negotiating with a builder or a contractor on things that have to be done in a very precise manner in order for you to have full enjoyment of the property and use of the property, you are much better off insisting on having the interpreter. Again, they can only refuse that if they can show that it would be an undue financial and administrative burden. And I can't stress enough that we're talking about administrative and financial burden. It has to be the two together. People frequently make the mistake of thinking it's one versus the other. So if there is a financial issue, then they'll say we won't do it. They have to prove that it's an administrative burden as well. >> JACQUIE: Okay, I've got another one here. I am the community reintegration coordinator at the Center for Independent Living. This is 8 from Illinois. I often reintegrate people into public housing and if they need accessible housing we usually have a long wait for one of these units to come open. Does the housing authority have the obligation to modify their existing units to accommodate the increase in demand for accessible units? >> BARBARA: I actually want to switch horses on you on this one. Because it's public housing, if that public housing development is receiving federal funds, then this could be done as a reasonable accommodation request under Section 504 of the Rehab Act. And that's different the way that works. Because that becomes treated as if it was a reasonable accommodation and the cost for doing that passes from the person with the disability to the housing provider. So it is something that you can ask for, but they are going to look at that unreasonable level on this one. It's one thing to have minor modifications done to a unit, it's another thing to take a unit and try to make it totally accessible. That might be something that's questionable. I'm not going to say definitely yes or no, but it might be questionable whether that's going to be reasonable enough under Section 504. >> JACQUIE: Okay, and one more before I let you go on. I am not sure that I still understand the difference between an accommodation and a modification. >> BARBARA: Okay, let me go through that because it's not as clear-cut. The reasonable modification is when you have a physical alteration to either the unit or the building or the development. So you are physically changing something. You're adding grab bars. You're 9 widening a door. You're removing steps and having a ramp put in its place. That's a modification. And, again, under the Fair Housing Act those costs are assumed by the person who made the request for the modification. Accommodation is different, and much fuzzier. You're talking about policies, practices, procedures, rules or services. For instance, parking is a service. So if they have three accessible parking spaces and you have four people with disabilities who need those spaces, the fourth person can ask as a reasonable accommodation -- because parking is a service -- that a fourth accessible parking space be created for their use. If they have policies such as not terribly uncommon in some states, generally rents are due at the first of the month. In some states people with disabilities who are receiving government benefits don't actually get their checks until the 3rd of the month so they are always behind. So the policy of the housing provider is that the rent be paid on the 1st. You make a reasonable accommodation request that it be changed to the 3rd or the 4th because of when your check comes in. Now, the reasonable accommodation always must be connected to the person's disability. On a case like that, it's connected because you are receiving that benefit because you are a person with a disability. Therefore, you can ask for that sort of thing to be done. Assistive animals are a good example of a reasonable accommodation. If a housing development has a no pets policy, or they have any sort of restrictions on pets, such as the weight of the animal, a person with a disability makes a reasonable accommodation request that that pet policy be waived. In other words, to say it's not going to pertain to their circumstances because what 10 they have is an assistive animal, not a pet. And let me take this as an opportunity to define assistive animal. >> JACQUIE: I was just going to interrupt you to say that we get a lot of questions about therapy animals, companion animals, that sort of thing. So again it would be great if you could make that distinction. >> BARBARA: Yeah. The Fair Housing Act takes a very broad definition of assistive animals. You notice I haven't said service animal. It's always assistive animals. That's the regulatory language of HUD. An assistive animal is any animal that is going to be providing some assistance for a person with a disability in order for them to have successful tenancy. In other words, it's an animal that's going to help the person thrive in their housing situation. There are no limitations on what an assistive animal actually does. So it could be a range of something we all see, highly trained service animals such as a seeing eye dog or a signaling dog, and it goes right to companion animals. A dog or a cat that you've picked up from the pound and helps stabilize you for whatever your disability needs are. So the requests that often come in to our center is housing providers are asking for proof of training and proof of certification. There is nothing in the Fair Housing Act that requires that the animal must be certified as an assistive animal or must have received any type of training. If there some doubt that the animal is an assistive animal, they can request that the person with the disability produce documentation from a health care provider that they are a person with a disability, and that they need to have this reasonable accommodation. That documentation does 11 not mean medical records. >> JACQUIE: Right. >> BARBARA: It could be a letter from a counselor, social worker, case worker, a physician, physician's assistant, nurse, nurse's assistant and all it has to say is John Smith is a person with a disability and needs this reasonable accommodation. Nothing more than that needs to be provided at the time of the original request. Now, if this ends up going into a fair housing complaint, then the person may be asked to produce more detailed documentation, but at the time of making the request, you don't have to provide anything more than the letter I just described. >> JACQUIE: Okay. >> BARBARA: And we've seen a wide range of not just what assistive animals do, but the types of animals. We've seen the cats, dogs, I've also seen ducks, chickens, goats, my favorite is a boa constrictor. And interestingly enough there have been some very valid arguments that support the need for all those different types of animals. So it is very, very flexible. For any advocates participating, pay very close attention to the Fair Housing Act and ADA because oftentimes people make the mistake of applying the ADA definitions of service animal, and the regulations under ADA for a service animal to a residential setting. And there is far more flexibility offered under the Fair Housing Act. So when you're advocating on somebody's behalf, make sure they are making the request under Fair Housing because it really does open up for more flexibility to meet their needs and there is a reason for that. 12 When you are at home, you need to have more of the one on one assistance that these animals provide. So you need to have more flexibility as opposed to what you need on a work site or what you need in a public setting. So the act has been pretty accommodating, no pun intended, for everyone by providing the flexibility around the definition of what an assistive animal is. >> JACQUIE: Okay, we've had some more questions come in. Do you want to keep taking questions right now? >> BARBARA: Sure, I'll keep going with the questions. >> JACQUIE: What if someone is renting a house from an individual. Do the rules of the Fair Housing Act still apply to individual renters? >> BARBARA: Yes, it does. The act does not distinguish based on ownership. So it could be your traditional rental situation where there is a corporation that owns the building and the individual rents directly from the corporation. It could be a condo arrangement where people buy their individual units that is going to be treated exactly the same under the act. If it's a unit that I have purchased and I rent it out to a person with a disability, then I'm covered to the same degree as a person who was renting from a large corporation. So the financial arrangements around the type of housing have no bearing. And also let me tell you the fair housing covers a range of types of housing, not just condominiums, rentals, but the act covers things such as dormitories, which can be key when you're trying to figure out the assistive animal issue. Because the dormitories would be covered under 13 Fair Housing, therefore, having that broader definition of assistive animals and yet the classrooms and other amenities out there on campus are going to be covered under ADA. So that becomes really tricky. But, you know, again, dormitories, shelters -- if it's a homeless shelter that has an extended stay policy which means the person can return every night until they find permanent housing, then that's going to be covered. Shelters that serve battered women are covered. So there is a lot of types of housing out there that are going to be covered under the Fair Housing Act which provide a lot of opportunities to people with disabilities to be able to individualize their living situation by making reasonable accommodations and reasonable modification requests. >> JACQUIE: Okay. Can a reasonable accommodation -- and you may have touched on this before -- but can it include reconstructing a bathroom and who pays for that? >> BARBARA: If it's a development that doesn't receive any federal funding, that would be a standard reasonable modification request, so you could have the bathroom totally remodeled in order to create greater accessibility. For instance, substituting a roll in shower for a stand in shower or a bathtub. That is allowable, but the costs are to be assumed by the person making the request. And that's always the difficult part on a reasonable modification issue because some of these modifications are quite costly, and the act again is very clear that the person who makes the request must assume it. >> JACQUIE: Who is responsible to pay for accommodations when a HUD voucher is being utilized? 14 >> BARBARA: All right, let me break out this because the term HUD voucher actually refers to two different types of vouchers. If someone has what's called a project-based voucher, which means the voucher is tied to the unit, so whoever lives in that unit must meet the HUD income eligibility requirements and the local administrator priorities and preferences and all that good stuff before they can move in. But that voucher is not tied to them, it's tied to the unit. So when that person moves out, they don't take the voucher with them. The voucher stays there and the next person who moves in gets the benefit of it. The term voucher that most of us are used to is the Section 8 tenant-based voucher. And that one the voucher is attached to the person. So where every go, my voucher goes with me. And it's important to distinguish between these two because under Section 504, if you're asking for a reasonable modification and it's a project-based voucher, then the housing provider has to assume the cost. If it's tenant-based, that's not considered a direct subsidy to the housing provider, so the individual accepts the costs. So it's very, very tricky. We at the Fair Housing First have a lot of experience where when people call us, we're sifting through one of the funding sources so we can see exactly how this is going to play out so that the person with the disability knows exactly what they are looking at in terms of their responsibilities versus the responsibilities of the housing person. So, you know, Section 504 is going to treat project-based as a direct federally subsidized program, but it is not going to treat tenant-based assets, so the person under tenant-based would have to assume it -- assume the costs. 15 >> JACQUIE: Okay, should resident halls on college campuses have visual fire and emergency as well as auditory signaling devices in all rooms? And the question goes on to say most Deaf-blind students collectively do not reside in residence halls, even those with accessible rooms. >> BARBARA: I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. >> JACQUIE: The question is whether the resident halls on college campuses are required to have visual fire and emergency as well as auditory signaling devices in all rooms. >> BARBARA: Under the Federal Fair Housing Act seven construction design requirements, if this was a dormitory being built after March 13, 1991 and has four or more units in it, then it is not required to have those type of signaling devices because there is nothing in the act that mandates it. But they can be requested as a reasonable modification, but on dormitories always ask whether there is federal money coming in to the college or university. Because if there is, then that's going to trigger Section 504. And by triggering Section 504, two things happen: In addition to the fair housing design and construction requirements, the Section 504 accessibility requirements are going to kick in as well. And so then you're going to have those 2 percent of the covered units that have to be built and designed to be accessible for people who have vision and/or hearing loss. So those signaling devices would have to be included in order to meet the Section 504 requirements. >> JACQUIE: And almost always in my experience at least federal money is coming in, even if it's federal student loans or things like that. 16 they are getting federal money. >> BARBARA: Exactly. It is very, very rare that you actually come across a college or a university that doesn't get some sort of federal funding. So when this comes up we always tell the person to start looking under Section 504 because you have that 2 percent requirement for the vision or hearing impaired accessible units and also again reasonable accommodation under Section 504, those would be costs picked up by the housing provider. You don't get a lot of protection under fair house, but you do get it under Section 504. So always, always ask about that federal funding piece. >> JACQUIE: Okay. This one is from -- is there a time requirement by which a modification has to be made if someone requests it? You know, is there a time limit that they have to make it? >> BARBARA: There is no specific time range that's listed in any of the regulations on the act itself. You keep hearing the term reasonable. And that actually makes sense because there is a difference between how long it takes to put in grab bars versus how long it's going to take to put in a ramp. So they always talk about it being done in a reasonable length of time. If you make the request for a grab bar and two weeks or a month later nobody is responding to you, then that may not be considered reasonable. We always tell people stop and figure about what do you really think it would take in order for somebody to do this? And split it two ways. First of all, you had shouldn't have to be waiting a long time to get a response as to whether your request has been approved or not. So if you made the request, they don't have three years to decide whether 17 they're going to do it or not. They have to respond to you in a reasonable length of time. And once they have responded and said, yes, this will go through, then you have to allow them to have a reasonable length of time to actually complete the modification or the accommodation. Refusal to respond or lack of any effort to respond -- if it goes past the time that's considered unreasonable, then that can be a basis for a fair housing complaint. And also if they delay quite a bit -- I'll give you an example. We've had people that ramps have been approved and three months later nothing has happened. So they have the approval. There is an agreement that the reasonable modification would go forward, it just hasn't gone forward. The result of them not going forward is the same as if they had rejected it. So again, no time line, but we tell people honestly think about how long it takes and also understand that sometimes delays happen because of the building permit process. Building permits don't get granted quickly. It's a very bureaucratic system and sometimes that can tie it up. So just saying that we allow you to have this ramp, don't expect that it's going to be there tomorrow, but if you're talking a few months down the road, then somebody didn't follow through and again basis for a fair housing complaint. >> JACQUIE: Right. And then you know maybe some communication with the landlord about have building permits been applied for and where is the hold up? >> BARBARA: Exactly. Communication is really important when you're asking for a reasonable modification or a reasonable accommodation. Especially in areas that have construction moratoriums. There are some 18 areas that will not allow certain modifications to go forward because, you know, for instance in the New England area it's too cold. It's not a smart time. If you build something the frost or heat may destroy it. You really don't want to build something in Florida or New Orleans -- Texas -- during hurricane season. You've got to be reasonable about this stuff. Knowing that there are going to be certain times of the year that there is an increased level of construction going on so that the ability of the local inspection services department to issue permits gets bogged down by the number of permits. So it's always important to ask -- you know, not just how come this is not done, but why? Are there any delays? Is there anything we can assist you with? Find out what it is and if you're not getting anything satisfactory about it, then you really do need to file the complaint because that can speed up the process. >> JACQUIE: Okay. Can a person ask for an accommodation for multiple animals like two dogs or two cats? >> BARBARA: That is possible. Now, in those cases, what's common is that's when someone is going to ask you for medical documentation. They are going to say that you actually have to have the multiple animals and it doesn't mean automatic. I caution people on that one. There are some very valid reasons that a person would have more than one animal. We've seen circumstances where someone has a comfort animal and they have a signaling animal as well. They serve two entirely different purposes. >> JACQUIE: Right. >> BARBARA: And that's acceptable. What I've also seen in cases 19 where -- I know we had one where an individual had 20 cats and was pushing forward with a claim that all 20 were comfort animals and needed all of them. You know, that's when you start wondering whether the number of the animals is going to cause an undue financial and administrative burden on the housing provider because those standards are applied to any reasonable accommodation request. And let me sort of segue off of that one to a question that's probably going to be asked and hasn't been yet is the whole issue of dangerous breeds on assistive animals. There are some people who have developments that they have limitations on the type of breed you can have. Usually you'll see pit bulls, Rottweilers, Great Danes, et cetera. These have to be decided on a case-by-case basis. There is no across the board response on this. If the presence of the animal is going to cause an undue financial and administrative burden and the housing provider can prove it, then it's not going to be a slam dunk that you're going to get that particular animal. And there is a difference between someone saying, yes, we'll let you have an assistive animal to you can't have that breed. >> JACQUIE: Right. >> BARBARA: The courts have ruled on this one. >> JACQUIE: That goes with this next question which is I have a consumer who has two pit bulls that she claims are service animals. The problem we have in Wichita is homeowners insurance will not allow a landlord to rent to anyone with a certain breed and there are four or five different breeds, one of which is pit bulls. If they do, then their insurance won't cover them. How could this be approached to allow them to 20 rent and the landlord still be covered by insurance? >> BARBARA: Okay, first it always has to be looked at is it truly a financial and administrative liability. If in this community or any place, if it is true that they cannot find a single home insurance provider that will cover them because they have a pit bull, then the probability is they truly do have an administrative or financial burden in that you really can't safely provide housing unless you have the insurance could cover whatever happens. So it can fit into that category. But I always tell people, make sure that they are not taking this as an easy out. It may be that their present insurance carrier won't allow it, but the question is are they willing to search out other carriers who do? And that's a tough one because it's becoming more and more difficult nationwide to find insurance carriers that will cover rental properties or even single-family developments now when there is a pit bull there. So the issue is they haven't denied the reasonable accommodation. They are saying you can still have an assistive animal, but you can't have that one -- that breed. And I know that's caused problems for people who have pit bulls as comfort animals because there is a very strong connection there and it's not just that any animal. They have a strong connection to that animal. It gets tricky. And while I'm on this whole issue, let me talk about that when assistive animals are approved, it is acceptable that reasonable conditions are set down by the housing provider. So the housing provider can say things like you can have the assistive animal, but I want to see proof that the animal has had the proper inoculations or they can say we expect this 21 animal will be well maintained because we don't want flea or infestations. They may say you have to clean up after the animal or restrict the area in which the animal can be walked. On those last two, that's generally okay unless the person's disability makes it impossible for them to meet those conditions. I've also seen -- and again usually considered reasonable -- when housing providers have said when the animal is outside the unit, the animal must be properly restrained. What they cannot do is impose unreasonable conditions and unfortunately I know some of those. We've seen cases where, for instance, there was one development where they allowed assistive animals, but they would not allow the animal to walk through any common use area. So if you came out of your unit, you had to pick up the animal, carry the animal into the elevator, out the elevator, across the lobby and you could not put the animal down until you got to your parking space. >> JACQUIE: That might be a little unreasonable for someone who needs the animal to lead them to the parking space. >> BARBARA: Not only unreasonable, but pretty stupid. And we've seen things like that. We've seen some very strange conditions that people have put down on these kind of situations. And I always tell people, think about what are you really imposing here? If the person is a person with a disability, and you're asking them to carry an animal that weighs 60 pounds. I can't imagine carrying a German Shepherd across a lobby, it just doesn't make sense and you're setting yourself up for a pretty serious fair housing complaint. >> JACQUIE: Are there any sources of funds that would help a 22 person when the cost for the modification is prohibitive? >> BARBARA: There actually are. First, I always tell people to check what's going on in their municipality or county. When state, county, municipalities or in the case of Louisiana, parishes receive federal funding from HUD, either the Community Development Block Grant funds, HOME funds, HUD does allow the use of those funds to pay for individual reasonable modifications to a person's home. So you would have to go to whoever in your community manages the Community Development Block Grant funds or the HOME funds and make that request. It's not easy to do. And generally what happens with those two funding sources is that much of the money is preallocated to either housing rehab, conversion of use or new housing construction. And so oftentimes when an individual approaches for money for a ramp, everything has been allocated up front. What I urge disability advocates to do is that in order for local government entities to receive Community Development Block Grant funds and HOME funds, they have to have a plan and the plan has to be subjected to public comment that advocates need to organize around this issue so that when those plans are developed, that there is enough money designated for individual modifications so that when someone needs it, they can go to it. Some communities, some states have home modification programs. Sometimes they are grants. Sometimes they are loans. So I tell people to be very familiar with what's happening -- not necessarily in the disability arena, but know what's going on in your housing area. Know what your housing finance agency is doing. Know what your state executive office of housing and community development is doing, know what your local 23 municipality is doing on planning because oftentimes there is small pockets of money. I've seen programs set up that were labeled as home repair programs and they did allow modifications to be done as if they were a home repair. Maybe not the most politically correct way of doing it, but the cash was there. So who cared. Some of your elder programs and some of your executive offices that serve elders, sometimes they have funds through their home care programs that can be used for elders who have disabilities. Not a lot of money out of there, but people need to think in a very creative way and pursue it. But again, if you're advocating, you're going to get involved in that planning process and that's one way to increase the pool of funds that's available out there. >> JACQUIE: Chad wants to know concerning the questions that you -- that were asked and answered earlier, could you please define administrative burden. >> BARBARA: All right. That is a hard one. The administrative burden means that in granting the reasonable accommodation request, you're causing some major disruption in the operation of the housing because housing is a business. So an example of administration is -- administrative burden is if the reasonable accommodation is going to interfere with the peaceful enjoyment of the property by other residents, then it could be denied. I'm going to use the assistive animal as an example for that. If you have a comfort animal and the comfort animal is not being properly cared for and let's just say there are fleas that are released, 24 and that has caused problems for other residents and those residents are now complaining, and rightfully so, to the housing provider that they have fleas. So that's the administrative burden is it's generally something where something has happened, the reasonable accommodation would interfere with the peaceful enjoyment of the premises or it causes a direct threat to other residents. So you have to look at that. There is an excellent document, and I know we listed it on the PowerPoint which is the HUD DOJ Joint Statement on Reasonable Accommodation. It is a wonderful document. Everyone should have it on top of their desk. It goes through this whole issue of administrative burden and gives several good examples of what that could be. >> JACQUIE: Okay, could you discuss who can qualify to make an accommodation or modification request? For example, how can we -- or can we require verification that the person qualifies to make the request, thus requiring the landlord by statute to address the request. Are there any differences regarding such verification of the requester's status in conventional versus federally or state funded housing? >> BARBARA: Actually, there is not much difference. The issue is that you are either a person with a disability, you're a person associated with someone who has a disability, or you're someone who is presumed to have a disability. So if I have a child that has a disability when I'm able bodied, I can make a request on behalf of my child. And I would have the standing to do so. This is very broad because it does not mean that there has to be a legal or blood relationship between the individuals. So I may live in the development and I have a friend who is a 25 wheelchair user. The friend comes to visit me quite a bit, but unfortunately there is no curb cut on the sidewalk near where my unit is. I can request as a reasonable accommodation request to my housing provider that that curb cut happen because -- I'm sorry, reasonable modification request that that curb cut happen because I have a friend who has a disability. I may request that this person has access to the accessible parking spaces when they come visit me because they are a person with a disability. So it is very broad in what there is. Now, if someone is doubting that someone really has a disability, the same thing as we talked about with the assistive animal. They can ask for documentation. And again, it's a letter that says John Smith is a person with a disability. It doesn't have to be more detailed. When you look at the HUD DOJ statement, it discusses this in a pretty convenient way. It talks about the fact that if a person is obviously disabled, you see someone who is in a wheelchair, you see someone who uses a white cane, you know they are disabled and you shouldn't be asking important any further documentation because it's right in front of you. If you have a person that there is no outward signs at all of a disability, and they suddenly are asking for a reasonable accommodation or a reasonable modification, then you can ask for the documentation at that point. So I caution housing providers always not to put themselves in a situation where they look like they are harassing somebody by asking for proof of something that's rather obvious. >> JACQUIE: Okay, and I guess it's important to point out that that's a little different than the other laws that we've been discussing 26 like the ADA and 504 in terms of definition of disability and what you may have to provide. >> BARBARA: Well, the definition of disability is almost the same. They are talking about anyone who has a physical or mental disability. And so pretty much follows the language in Section 504, but in how it plays out, it's a little bit more broad. >> JACQUIE: Right. Can you discuss noncompliance grievance procedures under the Fair Housing Act and what the enforcement mechanisms are that are in place once a favorable decision has been handed down? >> BARBARA: Okay. Let me start off about what the complaint process is. If someone believes that their fair housing rights have been violated, they have the right to file a complaint. The Department of Housing and Urban Development is the federal agency that has the right for investigation and enforcement of the Fair Housing Act. They do it in a couple of ways: They have ten regional offices that you can file a complaint with. And they'll do an investigation and make a determination, but they also fund organizations referred to as FHAPs, Fair Housing Assistance Programs. These are generally either city or state government agencies. And they are funded by HUD to do enforcement and investigation of the act. So anybody can file a complaint. What happens is once the complaint is filed, it is reviewed to determine if there appear to be a violation of the act. Nobody can determine a violation unless you go through a hearing. If there appears to be a violation, then depending on the seriousness of it, HUD or the FHAP office may determine that they will try to conciliate the process, a pretty 27 informal mediation type of thing. Very common when someone has had a reasonable accommodation or a reasonable modification complaint filed. They'll see if they can mediate this. If both parties agree, then they meet and they try to determine whether the request was reasonable. Are there any barriers to actually achieving this, and then they come to an agreement and the agreement is put in place and it's a voluntary conciliation agreement, VCA. If that happens and one of the parties doesn't live up to what they promised in that agreement, then a full investigation can be launched and then once the investigation is done, there will be a determination of whether there was cause and then it goes to a hearing and it's determined whether somebody is at fault or not. And if somebody is determined at fault, then there is a determination by HUD or FHAP of how the situation has to be remedied. So it can be a fairly long process. HUD has a standard that most cases must be resolved within 300 days of being filed. A lot do -- a lot are resolved under that. Of course the more complicated a complaint is, the more likely it's going to take a long time to do. So that's the HUD system. An individual with a disability who feels their fair housing rights have been violated always has the option to go through the standard court proceedings. They can hire their own attorney. They file a lawsuit against the housing provider and then it goes through the court system. The advantage to the HUD system is that you don't need to have an attorney and there are no charges to file the complaint. >> JACQUIE: Okay. Are campus housing units, residence halls or 28 apartments either one, are they considered rental units under Fair Housing Act? >> BARBARA: Rerepeat that? >> JACQUIE: Are campus housing halls or apartments considered rental units under the Fair Housing Act? >> BARBARA: The Fair Housing Act doesn't zero in whether it's a rental or nonrental. The issue is, is it an extended stay rest determine unit. If you're having an apartment style campus residential setting, a person is expected to stay there for at least a semester or even two-semesters, that's going to be considered extended stay so that will trigger coverage under the Fair Housing Act. >> JACQUIE: Okay. Can a landlord increase the rent after federal dollars were used to make a modification? >> BARBARA: That one is easy. No. There can't be any penalties levied against the person for having made a reasonable modification for a reasonable accommodation request. On a reasonable modification, the only cost that can be assigned to the person with the disability who made the request would be the cost of the actual modification itself. If there was federal money involved and the federal money paid for the modification, then the tenant with the disability cannot be charged as well. And a reasonable accommodation cannot stress this enough. No charges at all can be a signed to it. So issues around PET deposits, pet security deposits, pet rent, I've heard it called a lot of different things, none that have is allowable under the act. >> JACQUIE: Do regulations for accommodations cover outbuildings 29 on a property, like detached garages or sheds? >> BARBARA: The reasonable modification provision does, yes. So if you -- excuse me -- if you're talking about parking, then the reasonable accommodation would cover that as well. So if you had a garage that only had two accessible parking spaces and there was a need for a third one and you as a person with a disability requested it, then, yes, that would be triggered. If the out buildings such as the shed, if it's considered a common use amenity area, which means it's something that's open to all residents, people could store their bikes there, for instance, then it would be covered and you could ask for a modification around that. However, if you have something that is really a housing staff only area, like a mechanical room or a maintenance room that residents don't have access to, then reasonable accommodations or reasonable modifications cannot be applied to that type of room. >> JACQUIE: Okay. Do you want me to stop asking questions? >> BARBARA: No, keep going. >> JACQUIE: In a single-family home housing subdivision that uses mailboxes that are located in one central location, and a resident needs a lower mailbox due to the use of a wheelchair, who should the person address for such a request for a reasonable accommodation? >> BARBARA: The request should go directly to whom the housing developer was. In most cases when you're talking about a subdivision of single-family detached homes, there is a developer somewhere. So the request should go directly to the developer. 30 If the developer then needs to work with the individual to arrange for the mailbox to be within an accessible height if it's in a common use sort of area. If it's something where the developer has moved on -- and sometimes this happens. The developer builds it and then passes over -- sometimes referred to as a turnkey -- the development is passed over to a housing association or homeowner's association, they are all called different things, but they do the same thing, then the request for the accessible mailbox goes to the homeowner's association. If there is no entity, the developer is totally backed out of this development and every single detached family home is sort of a nation of itself, you need to determine who has the authority over that mailbox. If that authority of those mailboxes has passed to the U.S. pose postal service, then you make a reasonable accommodation request under Section 504 to the postal service. But in most cases, somebody still holds authority for the development itself. Maybe not the individual homes, but the development itself, the roads, the sidewalks, the common use amenities. So it's very rare where you see a development done and at some point there is nobody who has general oversight. I always tell people to ask if there is a property management company involved because then the request could be made to them. So the developer may not have any day to day oversight responsibilities in the development, but the property management does. So that the request for the accessible mailbox could have to go to the property management company. >> JACQUIE: All right. I'm out of questions now if you want to talk a little bit more and I'm sure the next batch will come in. 31 >> BARBARA: Okay. Let me spend a little bit more time talking about the type of housing that's covered because it's sort of popped up in several of the questions. Again, the Fair Housing Act is quite broad and you have to look at what's covered in terms of two types of portions of the act. The design and construction requirements of the act and again that doesn't include reasonable accommodation or reasonable modification, just the design and construction requirements of the acts itself only apply to buildings of four or more units that were first occupied after March 13th, 1991. So that's very specific. When you look at things such as reasonable accommodation and reasonable modification, you don't have that type of rigid specifications. It doesn't matter what the date of first occupancy was. It doesn't matter whether it's less than four units or not. The reasonable accommodation, reasonable modification would apply to all housing under fair housing. So we get people very confused about that, that they are saying this was built before March 13th, 1991 so I can't make a reasonable accommodation request and the answer to that is, no, that's not true. You can. And the reasonable accommodation -- and especially the reasonable modification provisions are designed to extend some fair housing protection to those developments, those housing units that were not covered by the act because of the design and construction requirements. So it's always important to know you can do that. If something is a historical property that does not automatically rule out the possibility of a reasonable accommodation or a reasonable modification. They are 32 trickier, but they are still very, very possible to do. And that's why we encourage people to call us because we can't give you precise solutions and say, okay, you have a building that was done in 1920 and this is how to redo the elevator so that it's accessible. We wouldn't be able to did that, but we would be able to talk to you about the feasibility of making a reasonable accommodation request. So don't sort of rule yourself out. I'd rather have people call us and clarify what they are covered under and what they are not than for them to restrict their fair housing protection by making an assumption that may not be true. And the other part of this is I always, always stress that people should be checking what their state fair housing laws are. State fair housing laws are everywhere different than the federal and some states actually offer more protection than the federal government. There are some states, for instance, under reasonable modification depending on the number of units that are there or the degree of the modification that they may say that the housing provider has to pick up the cost. So I know people hate telephone tag, but if you are looking for some that's vital to you being in control of your own housing, making a call to Fair Housing First and making a call to your state fair housing office is really worth the time because you may find out that you can get your reasonable modification and maybe not have to spend it yourself. So always sort of play that out. The type of housing again is very broad. We tend to make a mistake of thinking that fair housing only covers government funded large apartment rental buildings. And that's not true at all. It's going to cover a rental unit. It's going to cover a condominium, a co-op, it's going to cover time 33 shares, extended stay shelters for homeless individuals or for victims of violence. One thing we've seen more of as an interesting type of real estate product out there, and clearly for people who have money, you she large corporations that are developing these mixed use developments. Part of the development is a hotel, which obviously will be covered by ADA, not fair housing, but you'll see these -- what they refer to as investment condominiums so that I as an individual can buy unit 21-D. It's in Florida. I live in Massachusetts. I'm only going to be down there a few weeks a year. When I'm not there, the management of that unit moves over to the developer and they rent out the unit to other people. I get a cut of it as the investor. The corporation that's managing the site gets a cut. Those types of units are covered under the Fair Housing Act because they are considered extended stay. And they are extended stay because I as the individual in 22-D can return to that unit at any time that I want and it will always be there for me because I have a control over when I'm going to be there and when I'm not. And we've seen a lot of these in Hawaii, but I've seen a couple in Florida and I believe Texas has had a couple of these. So for advocates involved in monitoring what's happening in the housing options, don't ignore these kind of things because many of the corporations who built them are not as educated on fair housing as they should be. So they haven't made them as accessible as they should be. And, again, these types of developments would be subjected to the reasonable accommodation/reasonable modification provisions of the act. So always look. Time shares -- and 34 again, big deal. They are covered. They are considered extended stay time shares, then they will be covered under the act. Before anybody asks me this question because I've used the phrase several times, and nobody has challenged me yet on it, but there is no regulatory definition on extended stay. I don't even have an off the cuff is it two weeks or three weeks, but you look at what is it really being used for. If this is something that's being turned over to new people every two or three days, probably not extended stay. If it's something that somebody can return to and always get the same unit, then it would be. We have some things around hotels that actually have corporate suites, so a major corporation, the FHAA B. C. corporation buys a entete so every time their sales people come through that town they stay in unit 1-F. That means 1-F is an extended stay unit and subjected to some fair housing protections. >> JACQUIE: Okay. Ready for some more questions? >> BARBARA: You got it. >> JACQUIE: In instances where a history of drug use, aggressive behavior or felony convictions could be a manifestation of a psychiatric disorder, can a public housing program refuse to rent to an applicant? >> BARBARA: This is not a clear yes or no; but it's a good example of a reasonable accommodation. A person can make a reasonable accommodation request saying that the drug abuse behavior or the conviction was a direct result of a disability. They can ask for that to be taken into consideration in order to be considered. Now, drug -- substance abuse under the Fair Housing Act is very 35 similar to the definition under ADA. It's person who is in recovery from. Not someone who is presently engaging in illegal substance abuse. So sometimes public housing authorities will ask for or some sort of documentation to show that the person is in recovery. And then they'll negotiate whether that comes through. There are a couple of exceptions though. Anything that's funded by HUD, under no circumstances if somebody has been responsible for the manufacture of crystal meth will they be allowed back into public housing. And it's always important when looking at criminal background checks is to be able to distinguish the seriousness of it. There is a difference between the fact that someone sold one ounce to someone else so they could generate funds to keep their own habit going because they were addicted, the big difference between that as opposed to someone who has got 50k IL os in the back tung of the car, so in asking for a reasonable accommodation and preparing how you want this to be considered, make sure you're distinguishing it because the more serious the criminal offense, you can ask for a reasonable accommodation that it be taken under consideration, but your chances aren't as good if it's a lesser offense. There are some housing authorities that have a three strikes and you're out policy. The courts have been uneven in how they've approached that. Some have said that the housing authorities can do that and never have to let you back. Some have said, no, you can't do it. There has little some been questions about the families of the person with the substance abuse problem about whether they can be banned from public 36 housing as well. So it's all over the courts and I can't tell threw is a clear indication as to what would happen on that. >> JACQUIE: Okay, this is a follow-up question to the one about the mailboxes in the subdivision. Is the issue regarding a lower mailbox for a person using a wheelchair -- is that a Fair Housing Act issue, ADA or could it be a 504 question as with the U.S. postal service? Is the homeowner's association subject to Fair Housing Act and/or ADA? >> BARBARA: Okay. The first thing is to determine whether there federal funding or not. I know the postal question is going to be something separate. If this is a single-family detached housing development, which means each unit is not connected to another one and there is only restricted to use by one family, under Section 504 some of those units would have to be accessible and the mailboxes would become common amenities, so there would have to be some of those at accessible reach ranges. Under Federal Fair Housing Act -- I'm going to have to split this in two ways -- that type of development is not covered under the design and construction requirements which means that at the time of constructing these they were not required to be accessible, therefore, the common amenities are not required to meet the design. If they need to have a mailbox that's in an accessible range then that would pass on to the developer or whoever, homeowner's association, and they would put it through the reasonableness tells, is it an undue financial or -- excuse me -- undue financial and administrative burden test and if it isn't, then they would have to do it. ADA would not cover this unless that mailbox facility was a public 37 accommodation. I mean truly a public accommodation, something that would be open to the general public. And if it's not, then ADA is not going to figure in here as well. The issue of the postal service is -- the postal service is no different than any other federal agency in that it has some responsibilities to serve the public. So that if they needed to -- if there was a problem with the reach ranges for accessibility being in conflict with the reach ranges that the postal service has, then a reasonable accommodation request can be made. And it is important to let people know that when developers are building housing, it's not just building code requirements, there are other things they have to look at and one of them is that the post office does have a whole series of regulations about how mailboxes are done. Part of it is reach ranges, part of it is the size of it, not all of those requirements are done around issues of accessibility. Many of those are done around the ability of the -- to be able to protect the postal carrier for ergonomic issues, so they're not bending over too much or reaching too high. So the builder has to take those regulations in consideration with the building codes that they are using at the same time. So sometimes when those things conflict, a person with a disability needs to make a Section 504 request to their local postal office. >> JACQUIE: Is a housing provider and/or developer required to make a model home accessible under the Fair Housing Act? The model home is not used as a sales office. >> BARBARA: That's an important distinction. If it was used as 38 a sales office, then it would be considered a common use public accommodation. >> JACQUIE: Under the ADA. >> BARBARA: Under ADA, yes, exactly. Under fair housing, it's not required to do so to be accessible, but a person again can make a reasonable accommodation that they would need to be able to see what the model home looked like. So an alternative way of viewing the model home could be done, videotapes, photograph lay outs, things of that nature could be provided. >> JACQUIE: Okay. Can you explain the differences between the Fair Housing Act, ADA and Section 504 when it comes to the differences between accommodations and modifications? >> BARBARA: Okay. First you're going to go back to always checking what's going to cover. All right, because it is possible that you can have all three covering at the same time., but the differences between them are not all that great. Section 504 and ADA, they are almost exactly the same. A person with a disability, someone associated with a disability can make a request for a change or a waiver in order to allow greater accessibility and use. Interestingly enough, under ADA and Section 504 they combine the accommodation and the modification into a single provision. And under the ADA and Section 504 there are no costs that can be assigned if there is a physical alteration that's needed. So if you're in a public housing authority, you are covered by Section 504, you ask for the grab bars to be installed. You don't have to pay for those grab bars. If it's housing that was paid through state or municipal government 39 funding, and you need grab bars put in, you make that as a reasonable accommodation request under ADA and again you assume no costs. Fair housing splits the two as two very different entities or two different provisions. The reasonable accommodation is restricted to the policies, practices and procedures and services area. And the reasonable modification is restricted to the physical alterations. Under Fair Housing reasonable accommodation you cannot assign any costs to the person with the disability. Under the reasonable modification, the costs for the actual physical alteration is assumed by the person with the disability who made the request. >> JACQUIE: Okay. I know that the Fair Housing Act predated the ADA, but now that we have the ADA why do we still need the Fair Housing Act? So many laws are confusing. >> BARBARA: I agree that all these are confusing, but the ADA doesn't really cover very many housing situations. It is only going to cover housing when those units are funded through state or local government funding. If it's private housing, ADA is not going to cover it. If it's federal funding, ADA is not going to cover it. And I always caution people about determining whether it's state or local government funding. Oftentimes it's truly federal fund, but it's given to the state or the local government to administer. It remains federal funding even if the state slapped its name on it. It has to be pure state or local government dollars. So you're talking about almost no housing because very little housing in this country is built through state or local government funding. The majority that is built either totally private funds or federal funds. 40 So you still need to have the Fair Housing Act because ADA does not cover I would say 95 percent of the housing in this country. Housing is not a public accommodation. So it doesn't fit under the Title III of ADA. Housing may have public accommodation feature, so if they have a leasing office, the leasing office would have to meet Title III of ADA, but the units would not. So I agree that it's confusing with all these different laws, but fair housing covers a lot of things that ADA does not cover and ADA covers things that does not -- is not covered under fair housing. So if you kill off fair housing, then you've left most people with disabilities as well as other protected groups such as race, ethnicity, gender -- you've left them out in the cold. So you absolutely need to keep the Federal Fair Housing Act in place. >> JACQUIE: Okay. That's all the questions that we have right now. Do you have something else you'd like to cover in the few minutes that we have left? >> BARBARA: Yeah, let me just go through a little bit more about the Fair Housing Act itself. My last answer sort of triggered that in me. I want people to know that the act -- the first time it was passed was 1968. It covers a wide variety of groups of people. We have a habit of tossing people into little categories. We look at them if they have a disability. We look at them on their gender. What the act does is really nice. You can pull it altogether. So people cannot be discriminated against in a housing situation based on race, point of national origin, ethnicity, religion, gender, age, disability, and one of my personal favorites, familial status. That means you cannot discriminate 41 against a family that has a child under the age of 18. And this always becomes very important when you have families who have a child that has a disability. If someone says we don't take young children into this development, that could be discriminatory activity under the act. So it's important to say that because you may be able to file a complaint not only on the fact that the child had a disability, but that this is familial status issue. The area of coverage that can be tricky under the Fair Housing Act is when you get into age specified housing. The act does allow for some housing developments to restrict on age. These elder only housing or 55 and only housing or my personal favorite is active adults. I'm always looking for the one I want which is the inactive adults. I don't need any more activity here, but they can limit who they rent to or sell to in a condo situation based on age, but it has to be that you have to maintain a minimum of 80 percent of the persons in that development has to be at that 55 or above age for you to be able to restrict. If you have 79 percent, then you no longer can restrict based on age. So it's a very tricky thing. And I know for a lot of people they get very concerned on some of this housing, particularly older parents who have adults sons and daughters with disabilities. Someone may be 80 and want to move into an elder only development. She's still the primary care keeper for her son who has a severe disability, but he's 40. You can still apply to an elder only development and ask for a reasonable accommodation your son there because of the relationship between the two of you. If he's dependent on you as a caregiver, you can make a reasonable accommodation request to allow him to 42 continue to live with you even though it might be an elder only or active adult or inactive adult only development. So always look at that and not see if it's closed off. And again, if someone has gone below that 80 percent, then they no longer can be age specific. >> JACQUIE: Right. Okay. Well, I don't have any more questions. So if there is anything else you want to tell us about before we sign off -- >> BARBARA: I would be negligent if I didn't give you the number to call. >> JACQUIE: Please do that. >> BARBARA: I know you do that, but also I know you'll be giving our website. I strongly encourage everyone to look at the web site. There is a lot of very good fair housing information on that website. Also when you go on that website, check our training schedule. We do national trainings throughout the country and that's going to tell you which ones are coming up and it might be something that you definitely want to see. The trainings are free, but more importantly, we have some excellent trainers. It's not me so I can guarantee you they are excellent trainers that will be there. So look at that. We're just about to determine our training schedule for the next year. So you may not find something today, but within the next few weeks you can see our trainings listed and if they are in your area, it's definitely going to be worth your while to go to them. >> JACQUIE: And Barbara, go ahead and give them your number and website. 43 >> BARBARA: Okay, our toll free number is (888)341-7781. we're open 9 to 5 eastern standard time. We're actually located in Massachusetts. That's that number. That's also our TTY number. The website is www.fairhousingfirst.org. And first is spelled out by the way. >> JACQUIE: Right. Okay, and now we did have one last question come in. This is about -- again about campus housing and dorms. Are students required to go through the college grievance process prior to filing a complaint with the -- on the Fair Housing Act and can the complaint be done anonymously with the FHAP. >> BARBARA: Excellent question. When you look at the HUD DOJ statement, it's going to say this as well. The housing provider, whether it's campus housing, rentals, condos, cannot mandate that the person go through a formal request process in order to make the reasonable accommodation or reasonable modification request or to resolve the issue. They are encouraged to set up procedures so that they can better manage them, but they cannot mandate that they go through a formal procedure. They cannot even mandate that the request must be in writing. We also encourage people to do that because if there is a problem, the written records are really what's going to give your case some strength. Filing a fair housing complaint however, you cannot do it anonymously. There has to be someone who says this happened to me and this is who I am. So HUD cannot act on anything unless they have a complainant that's willing to identify who they are. The same thing with filing a lawsuit. You can't have an anonymous 44 person who files a lawsuit. The person does have to disclose who they are. >> JACQUIE: Okay. All right, thanks, Barbara so much for all the information you gave us today and Barbara is going to be back with us in a couple of weeks on another topic related to housing and we'll be sending out E-mails about that next week. I want everybody to feel free to share the archives of today's presentation with your friends and colleagues. Those archives will be available tomorrow at ilru.org. And please don't forget to complete the evaluation form that is on the webcast page. We are really interested in receiving your feedback. Also remember you can visit Adaptive Environments on the web at fairhousingfirst.org and their toll free number which is also TTY is (888)341-7781. Thanks to Barbara and to the National Institute on Disability Rehabilitation and Research, NIDRR, who is our sponsor today. The opinions and views expressed today are those of the presenter and no endorsement of any sponsoring agency should be inferred. And finally this webcast would not be possible without did efforts of our webcast team and Rob Dickehuth for his technical expertise and our wonderful captioner today, Marie Bryant. Thanks again for joining us. Have a dazzling day. Bye everybody.