1 Research and Dissemination in Indian Country: Indianonish, E-mail and Other Surprises. Presenters: Dr. AnnMaria De Mars and Dr. Erich Longie. >> JOANN: Good afternoon everyone. Thank you for joining us today for the webcast on Research and Dissemination in Indian Country: Indianonish, E-mail and Other Surprises. My name is Joann Starks, and I am with the National Center for the Dissemination of Disability Research or NCDDR, based at SEDL in Austin, Texas. I will be moderating today's webcast and getting your questions to our presenters. Cohosting today's webcast is Frank Martin who is also with the NCDDR. Before we move on to the introduction of today's presenters, I want to be sure to thank our partners at ILRU in Houston for helping with the technical side of this webcast. There are some materials accompanying today's webcast that can be found on the ILRU's website. Normally, you'd be able to get them from the NCDDR's website as well, but today our offices are moving to a new building and the web server is shut down until Monday morning. You'll find a description of the webcast, plus a PowerPoint file and a text file of the same information in Word format on the ILRU website and that address is www.ilru.org. And then you can look for webcast calendar on the left-hand side of the menu and go from there. Please remember that this information is copyrighted and cannot be used 2 without the written permission of our presenters. You can submit questions at any time during the webcast and the presenters will decide whether to answer them then and there or at the end where we've set aside a question and answer period. To ask a question, you can click the submit question button at the bottom of your Windows Media Player or RealPlayer screen or send it directly to webcast@ilru.org. If you should have any technical difficulties during the webcast, please call ILRU at (713)520-0232 and dial 0 for the operator to ask for assistance. This number is both voice and TTY capable. I also want to mention that we would appreciate your feedback by filling out a very brief evaluation form at the end of today's webcast. A link to this form is found on the ILRU web page related to the webcast. I'll remind you about this again at the end of today's presentation. Now I'd like to turn things over to Frank Martin who will introduce our guest presenters. Frank. >> FRANK: Thank you, Joann. The NCDDR is pleased to bring you today's webcast on the topic of disability and American Indian research. Culturally competent research is a very important and challenging issue. We are privileged to have Dr. AnnMaria De Mars and Dr. Erich Longie as our presenters for today. Dr. AnnMaria De Mars has worked on reservations throughout North Dakota for over 17 years as a tribal college faculty member, evaluator for tribal grant-funded projects and a staff trainer. With Dr. Erich Longie, she developed the first internet course ever offered by a tribal college. She is the author 3 of numerous scientific articles; the main focus of her research is on family involvement of relatives of people with disabilities. Dr. De Mars is vice-president of Spirit Lake Consulting and a member of the faculty at Loyola Marymount University and at Pepperdine University. Dr. Erich Longie is a success story of vocational rehabilitation, the first member of the Spirit Lake Dakota to earn a doctorate, a former college president and co-founder of a technical services company headquartered on the Spirit Lake Nation. His primary research focus has been on Native American education from elementary school through tribal colleges. Dr. Longie is president of Spirit Lake Consulting, Inc. Now I'd like to invite Dr. Longie to begin today's presentation. >> ERICH: Thank you for that introduction. If everybody would move to slide 2: Indianonish. There is a little Indianonish in all of us. For those Indians that say they are not Indianonish, they are probably not being truthful. And it is this Indianonish in us that makes us such difficult research subjects. Slide 3 -- what we're going to talk about today is some assumptions and cultural differences and how to get modification to standard research practices and we'll give an example on how individuals with disabilities get information. Next slide, please. Right here we have a picture out the back door of our office of Sully's Hill National Game Preserve. You see the picture of the buffalo. This is where the buffalo roam. We say we are 100 miles away from the nearest Starbucks, but one mile away from the nearest buffalo herd. Next slide. 4 A false assumption -- and I'll let my colleague Dr. De Mars take over on this particular slide. Ann. >> ANNMARIA: There is a few false assumptions we want to talk about on doing research on reservations. We always learn that a true experiment is the best design for research and we found that really to be untrue. A second assumption is that by using a Native American staff member, that's the only thing you need to do to recruit subjects in reservations and we found that not to be true. The only thing you need to do is offer money, financial incentive, people will come, and we found that not to be true. A lot of that goes back to that first slide where people are not concerned about material things and they are not trusting of people from the outside, and the final assumption we found to be false is that Native American parents aren't interested in involvement with disability programs. Next slide -- >> JOANN: That should be slide 6, correct? >> ANNMARIA: Yes. As far as a true experiment -- when you do an experiment you randomly assign people. You go over here and take this test and everybody is going to take a pre-test at the same time. There is going to be a certain standardized instruction or treatment that everyone is going to undergo and then everyone is going to take the post-test at the same time. The people who were selected for the pre- or control or experimental group originally is selected randomly, that kind of thing is very unrepresentative of what's going to happen on reservations. If you could actually get something like that to happen, I don't know who it would generalize to. In our research that we're going to talk about today, we do community training, for example, and we've been 5 doing some controlled studies as to the effectiveness of that. And in our study, about 60 to 70 percent of the people are there for the whole time. Some people come late. Some people leave early. Some people come late and leave early and that's just what they are going to do, and I think Erich is going to talk a little bit more about why that is on how complying with a research model that was externally designed is not necessarily the highest priority on most tribal member's minds. Next slide. Slide 7. Erich. >> ERICH: Yes, on slide 7 you have a picture of my latest mug shot. Slide 8. I think we've been introduced so I won't -- I won't elaborate on that slide anymore. Next slide. >> JOANN: We're getting some feedback there, Erich. I don't know if you've done something different with your phone. >> ERICH: No, I haven't. No, I haven't. I hear that, too. >> JOANN: Rob, do you have any suggestions? >> Rob: Yes, my suggestion is that everybody mute their phones who is not actively talking. >> JOANN: Okay, we'll try that and see if that works. >> ERICH: Okay, sounds better now. Hello? >> Rob: Proceed. You're on. >> ERICH: Next slide, slide 9. As a Native American born and raised on the Indian reservation, I thought it would be quite simple for me to go to another reservation or even my own reservation and talk to the first Indian I see and get them to participate in my research. How wrong I was! Even on my own reservation, by going to a different district, people -- I think my mistake and I think a lot of researchers make this mistake when it comes to Indian 6 reservations, they picture an Indian as one person, one size fits all. So no matter what you're researching, whether it's a social issue, whether it's a scientific issue or whether it's, in our case, disabilities, I think we make the assumption that we just go to a reservation and grab the first Indian that we see and that person will work for us. That's absolutely not true. Even though -- like I said, there is a lot of Indianonish in all of us, however, we're quite assimilated in other areas, and there are some people who simply have no interest in the areas of disabilities and no matter what we do to them, they are not going to participate. On the other hand, there are some people who -- there are some Indians who, for whatever reason, are interested and they will come and we will have to pay them. So, again, I was greatly mistaken thinking that just because I'm an Indian, I can go to other Indians and do some research, but I found that was not so. Next slide. However, having said all that, being Indian did help me and being an Indian with a doctorate degree helped me even more I think. It helped me in a way that people were courteous with me. They were respectful to me. They pointed out places, et cetera, but when it came down to the actual recruitment of subjects and the participation of subjects, I often got a blank stare. Next slide. And part -- that was partly because the difference of culture. What I say, there is nothing wrong with going to a strange town or village and say, I have this survey, could you have a few people fill it out. On Indian reservations, it's not like that. That's where Indianonish comes in. They look at you and say why should I fill out that survey? And there are a lot of people who say what's in it for me? And there are some people who say, another one of these? 7 Because Indians have been the most researched group of people I think in the United States. So for some individuals they are simply tired of research projects and they don't want to have anything more to do with it. So we really -- those Indians who participate in research -- in our research projects are often researched not because who I am, but because of who I recruit. We said earlier that having an Indian recruiter does not work. We're talking about me -- I'm talking about myself on that. However, what I found that works is if I go to a different district and I locate somebody who is distantly related to me and I tell that person I have this research project and I need 40 people or I need 30 people. What that person will do then, he or she will go out and recruit the people for me. The people won't -- he or she recruits won't participate because of me or because I have such a good product, they will participate because of the relative that is recruiting them. And it took me a while to realize that. And once I realized that, you know, I just -- some reservations you just have to learn who the large families are, get somebody from that large family to help you recruit and that person will be a lot more successful getting participants than I ever will be. Next slide. Okay, I guess being born and raised on the reservation and being exposed to researchers for quite awhile and then becoming a researcher myself, I realized that researchers get paid pretty good. Not only that, but sometimes they get national recognition. They get patted on the back and all kinds of stuff, and what does a reservation resident get? Absolutely nothing, in my view. And so when I became a researcher, I tried to make sure that we included in our budget some kind of monetary value, something such as lunches, door prizes or whatever to give to these individuals who are taking part in our research project. It's 8 a small part of our budget, but it does a lot to recruit some people -- not all people -- and it does create a good feeling towards you because Indians are known for generosity. When you come in there and take, take, take and not give anything back, you eventually wear out your welcome. Next slide. Okay, who wants to be a random sample? Indians like I said are -- they don't care what we're doing. They could care less if we are doing a research project that's going to save the world. They got their own things to do. And even if they are not employed, even if a person is not employed, they seem to be busy all the time. They are always doing something. They may be going to a pow-wow. They may be going to a funeral. They may be going to a give-away. They may have to help some relative or whatever. So the younger Indians are becoming more and more mindful of who they are, whereas the older Indians would participate in a research subject just out of courteousness and to be helpful they'll participate. Younger Indians are not like that. They'll just simply tell you no. What's in it for me? I don't want to participate. So we have to really work on finding different approaches to recruit people. And some of the things that we found works -- not all the time -- keep in mind that some things work sometimes but not all the time. To contact people ahead of time. A lot of advertising -- Ann, you can jump in any time -- a lot of advertising does work all the time. Indians are not scheduled people. You can put posters up or send letters out. You can put it in the newspaper, and people probably read it right up to the day of the project when they are scheduled to attend and they won't come. On the other hand, what we found out was that a lot of reservations that have their own radio stations, Indians seem to listen to their own radio station and that's where we did get most of our 9 success by advertising on the radio station on the reservation. And even then we don't get the full participation we need. Next slide. >> JOANN: That's slide 15, right? >> ERICH: Yes, slide 15. And because Indians who live on reservations, because they are not interested in what you're doing, doesn't mean that they are not sophisticated or they are not aware of what's going on in the outside world. Ever since they came out with these satellite TVs -- they started off with these huge receivers on the lawn and now they are just little tiny receivers that you put on the side of your house, but in my view, ever since they came out with that, the young Indians have become assimilated at an astonishing rate. I mean, my kids wear clothes that I would never have dreamed of wearing. They say things I don't understand and they pick it up all from the MTV and Black Entertainment Channel, all those places. So Indians are becoming more and more sophisticated, but we still have that Indianonish in us and it makes us difficult research subjects. >> ANNMARIA: Can I add something here, Erich? I think sometimes -- not you and I, but sometimes people doing research on the reservation interpret things in the most favorable light themselves. So if people don't come out -- aren't willing to participate in your research, fill out the survey, they interpret it as a lack of understanding or these people aren't interested in their family members or they don't care about disability. Well, the fact is like a director of special ed on one of the reservations told me, we don't let them come out here and do research anymore. They came out and did a study on fetal alcohol syndrome. They told us what percentage of the kids in our tribe 10 had fetal alcohol syndrome and then they left. We weren't in any better position than before they came except we're all depressed. And her point was exactly what you were saying all along, that sometimes people aren't interested, not because they don't understand the interest and aren't sophisticated, but in fact they do understand the research and they do understand there is not a darn thing in it that's going to benefit that tribe. I'm sure those articles helped that person get tenure, but it didn't help that tribe at all. And someone felt it could help them to produce statistics to get that grant, but I'm not sure it does unless we have somebody there who can apply for those grants. So often what we find people are concerned, but they don't see the direct tie between that proposed research and helping their family member. And if we're real honest about it, in some of that research, there isn't a direct path. I'll come off my soap box for five minutes. >> ERICH: And getting back to Indianonish, Indians are the worst gamblers in the world because we depend mainly on luck. We don't study the odds. We don't do this and that. It's all luck and we roll the dice. And if you get all the information and show it to us, it's not going to change our opinion on most things. Okay, the next slide, which is slide 16. I think, Ann, this is where you take over. >> ANNMARIA: The reason I put this picture on here is this is from one of our training workshops where we're testing our disability access that we'll talk about today. And it shows how things work in an environment with ecological validity. Where you have people that's going to be using the product. And what I said before, and I was talking about (inaudible), 11 researchers who insist that you have to randomly assign cooperative participants to groups, to be taught under controlled positions, they are going to have data that doesn't apply to many people. If you look at this picture, the mother on the far left is eating sunflower seeds and working on a computer, contrary to all the signs about no eating and drinking. And then there is a young man with a laptop off by himself, but he is working. And then there are two dads talking about what's on a computer, and in the far right corner there is a group of three grandmas looking at the computer together. This is very contrary to the standard, one person, one computer standardized condition, but this is how people are going to learn. So if we're interested in developing intervention that really works, what we found is to test them under conditions that we're going to hope people will use those interventions, not test them under some sterile control conditions that is never going to be replicated on any reservation ever again. Slide 17, next slide. Now we have a picture of an empty classroom because I think that's what happens sometimes with programs for people with disabilities or programs in family involvement in general, we constantly hear people complaining. Oh, we didn't get enough involvement. We opened up a school and nobody came. I think when anyone does research, you have to start off and ask yourself why are you conducting this research? Is it for you to get some more articles out for tenure, to get your next grant funding or is it really for the community you intend to serve and we start out everything that way. We're a for profit company and we had a new young Ph.D. working for us once who said in a staff meeting, we do anything that makes money, right? And Erich said, no, anything we do makes money because that's how we provide employment on this reservation, 12 but anything we do has to make a difference in the community or we don't do it. We'll go back to the job we had before. Next slide. You saw the view out of back door in the winter and now here is the view out our back door in the fall. The reason we have these pictures is to give you a focus of working on a Indian reservation. The kinds of modifications we found that people need to be successful. What you see in this picture is really not a lot. There is a tree and a lake and some weeds. And the reason I put this here is sometimes when we see recommendations that come out of Washington, DC, for example, they really don't apply because they haven't considered the conditions. The prime example I can think of -- I was in a meeting in St. John, North Dakota. It was a few miles from the Canadian border and they had a workshop presenter which I'm sure was very competent in his field and he was talking about working with children with severe disabilities and a woman from one of the local schools stood up and asked a question. And the first thing was she should consult her school psychologist. And she said we don't have a school psychologist. And his next recommendation was a speech pathologist, and he went through three or four people. And she stood up and said, listen, I teach in St. John, North Dakota, population 152 or whatever it is. There is no school psychologist, speech pathologist, there is nobody but me. You are looking at the special ed department. So I think when we design anything, we need to consider who we're designing it for and why. Next slide. The reason I put in a picture of me with one of my many children -- actually I have four, so Erich wins again. That's why we're doing this. We're trying to develop interventions that help families with their children. Next slide. 13 I think for us in developing computer-based training or in developing any kind of research project, it's been helpful to try to keep a picture in mind of who we're developing this for, and I have a picture here of one of the mothers who was at one of our training workshops on family life and disability at the computer screen because this is the kind of person I always think of when I look at should we include something in a project, should we not include it, will it help that mom? I think it helps when you do your research and thinking who is this for? How can you help them? Next slide. How to serve the communities we serve -- we have projects designed to improve the lives of Native Americans and their families. And this goes back to the answer that Erich gave to the young Ph.D. If this will improve people's lives, then we'll go for it. If we can't see how it leads to some improvement in people's lives, then we pass and go on to the next thing. We also in any kind of design of research, of implementation, we're taking into account the needs and the constraints of reservation communities, which can be very different from some other communities. And then one of our areas of expertise is computer integrated training and research. That's what we'll talk about today. Next slide. When we talk about reservation-based, one of the things I think about for that mom we're trying to help is she probably has a limited chance to meet other families in similar situations. There is a quote here from a mother that Erich had interviewed that she said when her son was nine months old he was like a newborn. He started having what she didn't know at the time was a seizure. So when I read this, (inaudible). But for many parents on a reservation, or for many individuals with disabilities, they are the only one. They are the only 14 one in their community with that particular diagnosis and there isn't anybody else to talk to. So that's one of the needs that we want to address. >> ERICH: Let me add something. In one of our tests that we gave up, they showed up again as lack of knowledge and when we asked on the test we asked what they would do when they discovered a child had disabilities, one of the mothers said just love him and you know that's a good thought, but it needs more, it needs some medical intervention. >> ANNMARIA: Next slide. Another constraint that we found for the reservations is that -- we have a picture here of somebody in front shoveling snow. If there is ice and snow on the road, which happens a good bit of the year depending on the reservation you live on, there is no getting to the nearest university library, and even when the roads are clear and even if you have a car that's reliable, even if you have enough money for the gas, both of which are pretty big ifs, then the nearest university library that has a lot of information on disabilities is three or four hours round-trip and if you have a child who is severely disabled that you have to pack in the car along with you, it just gets to be a major barrier to getting that information. So when we designed our interventions, one of the things we designed in was access to that information and in some places it has been wonderful. (inaudible). So that's another thing we're thinking of, how far to the information and how can you get it. Next slide. Some of the other constraints or characteristics of the reservation environment we tried to design in. There isn't public transit on any of the reservations where we work. I think Navajo down in the southwest has a public transit system, but nowhere do they have bus lines, subways, anything. We 15 provide transportation. One reason people may not be coming to other parent involvement activities, they don't have a ride. Or if they have a ride there, they don't have one back. That's one of the things I see that is just awful for an IEP meeting. They bring the parent there and she's left there. There isn't a McDonald's or a Starbucks down the street, so if someone is coming for an all day training or coming during their lunch hour or coming during their dinner hour, they are going without eating. So we provide lunch and coffee breaks. We realize that a lot of families are not high income, and eating out may not be in their budget so we provide that. If they are coming to a parent training session, they have a child. So who is going to take care of that child? So we offer child care. Now, many of the families we work for has a relative or someone they would feel more comfortable taking care of our child than our research assistants, but we do offer it. And we also offer a stipend. As Erich said, we all get paid and yet we expect these parents to show up and participate in this training all day or two days for nothing. And even if you work at McDonald's, we still expect to you show up. (inaudible). So we offer a stipend for the participation and I found that that's something a lot of research projects don't. Next slide -- we started off talking about false assumptions. That mom on that reservation is a lot smarter than some people give her credit for. And we've found in many of our sessions that we have sort of -- and maybe Erich you can talk about this a little bit -- the responsible one in the family. I know you are that in your family. The one everybody calls up for advice. >> ERICH: Usually on my reservation, anyway, there is usually an individual who is the matriarch or they are head of the family and that person 16 usually has a job that the person who everybody -- the rest of the family members goes to when they need help. He's the person who organizes the wakes if there is a death in the family. He is the person who would organize a ride if there is somebody in the hospital. And these are the individuals who have a lot on their plate and these are the individuals who are going to participate in our research because either they are curious and want to learn more. And to participate in our research just adds more to their plate and we find that by offering a few benefits here and there, transportation and stuff, it makes it easier for them and most of these individuals, young ladies that we've been working with, a lot of them are computer savvy. There is not that much computers in homes scattered throughout the reservation, but whatever computer, whatever home has a computer, you can bet there is a lot of visiting there. I'm fortunate to have two computers in my home, and one of them is in my living room and the people that come in not to visit my son but to use the computer is amazing. >> ANNMARIA: And I think your point about the people everyone turns to has been a result of our research having more of a reach. We'll have people in the research because they are taking care of their uncle with Alzheimer's, but their sister has a little boy with autism. Find out if they can tell you something I can do with Jeremy. So those moms know a lot about computers. They are also the resource for other people in their family and we're trying to provide them a way to not just get information for their own child, but for that extended family for who they are the resource. And as Erich said, not a lot of people have computers at home, but the photo in this slide is from the Boys and Girls Club. Every district has a Boys and Girls Club and every one has 17 computers. So there is a lot of public access to computers. Next slide. And here is a picture of just one of those moms who comes to our computer integrated training. We've talked in general about our research, and next I want to get into one of the specific research projects we did. Next slide -- and that's the family life series. We started out calling it disability access and changed the name to family life because the feedback we got seemed to fit with that better. And in the family life series, we offer five workshops for training people with disabilities and their families, they are a computer integrated model, which I'll talk about in a little bit, and the five are disability access, which is introduction to disability and disability services and one of the things we're really surprised about when we started that is how many people didn't know what a disability was. How many people didn't know what a developmental disability was, even if they had one, even if their child had one. We had people with severe learning disabilities who didn't consider themselves disabled, and didn't think they qualified for these services and they would say things like, oh, no, that's for people in wheelchairs or someone who has a very severe speech impediment and we spoke to the family and he said he's already, he can think okay. So we found a real lack of knowledge about what was a disability, what types of disabilities qualified one for services. The family life and disability series we talk about a lot of issues that aren't usually addressed, substance abuse, dating, domestic violence, the transition of children leaving home for many parents -- and I the testify for this when my child left home, it's just terrifying to think of your child that you feel has all these special needs moving out on their own. The lead quote on the family life and disability page is it's not a (inaudible) sort of thing, 18 it's (inaudible) which is a really sad description, but I think that described a lot of parents that we worked with. They are just terrified their child is going to have a hard time making that transition. The young children and disabilities workshop has been really well attended. In fact, we have young mothers often who are pregnant attending with their -- with the baby's father and one of my favorite comments from that was the number of young men who said, yeah, she made me come. But it wasn't too bad. And disability school years addresses children and special ed and adulthood disability and aging we focus on (inaudible), and also on secondary disability that is come about with age and also people with disabilities who become more disabled as they get older. Next slide. Computer integrated training is a new way to training people with disabilities and staff and family members. When online learning first came out, we were all in small communities and it was the answer to everything. Oh, you're having this web-based training and it's going to even the playing field and everybody is going to be able to access all of these courses. And it wasn't that way. The drop out rate for these courses is very high and people would come in and they would log on and they couldn't get a pdf file to open and (inaudible). So now what we do is we combine online learning and classroom instruction. We'll come in for a day and work with folks to open up their pdf files, help them navigate their way around the site and do some in-class lecturing and group activities, and some more online and then a day or week or two weeks later we come back and do a second full day. And then we leave everyone with copies of cd's in case the Internet goes down or they don't have Internet at home. We E-mail them follow up newsletters and keep in touch with 19 them. So it's a combination of approaches. Next slide. What we do -- I'm going to go on about this because I get frustrated with those research articles where they tell us they did these great things and here this was significant but they don't tell us precisely what they did in case we wanted to replicate it. In a few words, what we do is create slices of the Internet. If put in traumatic brain injury, you may find 4 million websites. If you come in in some of our workshops, we'll have people that have never touched a computer before. We have a section that go online and on our cd's that go through how to use a mouse or a web browser. And for those young mothers we skip over that. We can customize on the fly. We can customize it for people who need information on specific types of disabilities or age groups. We realize that on the reservation there might be several people with diabetes. There might be two children with autism and three people in this group who are taking care of elders with Alzheimer's and next week we might have completely different set of disabilities. So we can right on the spot we have 2600 documents on our site and I'm sure it's many more now. And we can right on the spot pull out the 60 or 80 things that are useful for this group. Next slide. What I mean by making slices of the Internet -- I actually didn't make this quote up. I pulled it off of a website and I have two masters degrees and a doctorate and a whole bunch of experience and I still don't know what it means. The project engages in simultaneous top-down and bottom-up activities to educate stakeholders and demonstrate accessible E&IT. And anyone that can understand it can E-mail me and explain it to me. So when we select content for our website, for our C. D.'s or training, we're looking for something that's useful and that's meaningful for that mother 20 we keep in mind when we're developing it. So if you have something that tells us the percent of children who have a syndrome among African Americans versus Native Americans, we're not going to include that. Because that mom doesn't care. All she cares is that her child has it and she wants to know what she can do to help her child. So we don't include a lot of demographic studies. We don't include a lot of comparative studies. We're focusing on if I'm sitting down at a computer and my sister says I came from I. H. S. and they told me my little boy has autism and what does that mean? We're trying to find something that will help her. Next slide. Here is the four training components and it's all based on all those things I talked about so far, reservation constraints, our needs in trying to help that mother. We have course modules which are the web pages and documents put together into the five workshops I talk about. Occasionally people say something like why do you need this? Internet access is free? It's kind of like saying why do we need schools when we can walk into the library for free and get books? The course modules are putting a structure on all of that, writing things in plain language. Attaching them to documents or references for people to get more information. So that's a group of web pages and documents that we've written on those five different areas. The virtual library is growing every single day. It's online, full text retrieval and free. It is not free if it's not full text. So if you are a four hour drive from the nearest library and your child has epilepsy and you want to know what it means or what you could do or what is recommended, you can go to our virtual library page on epilepsy and they are organized in shelves just like in a regular library and click through there and read whatever you need. If your child has diabetes, and 21 you'd like something to take to the school, a form, you can click through there and find whatever you need. We're also adding something in there called an electronic filing cabinet that includes everything from templates for parents letters to schools, to templates for individual family service plan. The commons area is to address another need. Remember that quote from the mother who said she didn't even know people had disabilities like this. The commons area includes a forum where people can go post questions on disabilities. That is not -- it's not moderated except for the sense if there is anything pornographic or totally I am appropriate, we remove it. There is a bulletin board where people can up load things like a bulletin board except it's virtual. There is a reading room that includes things like our biweekly electronic newsletters that have a lot of personal stories from people on how they are dealing with disability, how they are taking care of their family member at home, any kind of service programs that think might be helpful and the fourth thing is the on site workshops on the reservation. Next slide. >> JOANN: This is Joe January. I just want to let you know we've reached 45 minutes and we're halfway through our time allotted for today. >> ANNMARIA: Thank you. The advantages of computer integrated training -- I knew Joann was going to say this so I abbreviated this list. It's customizable for community needs and we had several hundred web pages and a couple thousand documents. So every community is different. And we can customize it to meet those differences. The virtual library, the bulletin board, all those things allow people who are in different remote communities to interact with one another. We provide it on cd if you don't have Internet access, at least you'll have that website. We have on site training and follow 22 up. Our research has shown that we don't get a lot of behavioral change or knowledge change out of one day or a couple of days. It's an ongoing process. And that's why we provide the website and the forum for people to participate in that ongoing process, too. So we have both interactive with the forum and we have one way communication where we send out the newsletter to folks. Next slide. The purpose of our training is to help people with disabilities find the services they need. That's one of the major purposes. Another is to give people with disabilities and their families information they can use. And those are a little different because the second one says we're giving this to you now. The first is we're developing the skills and the resource for you to find it in the future. So when your other sister comes and said, oh, you helped her with Jeremy and now my son has a speech impairment, can you help me with that? So that person in the family can sit down and say, yes. We'll go through the cd and through this website and here is stuff on language development. Next slide -- well, in keeping with the latest emphasis of No Child Left Behind on em pier call data, we have assessed this on three different reservations. On each one we did a comparison group, (inaudible). We had a comparison group on each reservation. We had a training group on each reservation and what we showed was there were significant differences under standardized testing conditions on testing knowledge of disability services and knowledge of best practices. So our research did document the (inaudible). Next slide. As far as the training design, it doesn't require the user own a personal computer. There is nothing that you have to download and install. The training 23 takes place on the reservation in a computer lab similar to where most (inaudible). So we don't have the latest software. When you go to our website, a lot of it is not necessarily the latest bells and whistles with pod casts and it's not that we don't know how to do those things, but we realize that some of the people using them have low bandwidths and we're trying to make it accessible to them. Some of them are using old computers. When you go to map world or some of these computer shows, everything works. Because they have the brand new computers and the latest test version. We don't test our software under those conditions. We test it where people are going to use it. And so that's why many of the things that we develop are designed to work with older versions of software, with slower versions of computers, to work with dial up access. Next slide. Our training design doesn't require (inaudible). That would be nice because there are links that go off of our site. Whatever possible, we require an often receive permission to make a copy of a web page on a C. D. So about 90 percent of what we have on the site can you access if you don't have Internet access or for people that don't have dial up access, it's much more effective as well. It doesn't require you have a CD-ROM. You have an old computer -- (inaudible). We found the vast majority of people on the reservations have access to at least one of those things. Next slide. You can design the site yourself. You can -- users can select the modules specific to their age or disability or interest. Like I said, we know that many of those mothers are very smart. We know that many of those young kids, those young fathers who have a little child with a disability are computer savvy, so we set about where you can follow our design where it's step by step with an 24 arrow at the bottom of the page or menus on the left-hand side or can you go through and customize it yourself. The website is redundant. We've done something a little different I think. My background was an industrial engineer and it's been kind of hard with some of our new Ph.D.'s to not design to impress your colleagues. What we've done is try to design a site that's easy to use, as easy as possible. So a person can go from the mental retardation section under the introduction or they can go from the page on specific disabilities to the mental retardation section. Some pages will have the identical page reproduced in two or three different pages. Yes, it's redundant, but server space is expensive and our biggest priority is making it easy to use. Next slide. That would be slide 38. We do have a url on there for anyone. (inaudible). If after this webcast you'd like to take a look at it. And if you add to that DA and another back slash that will take you to the disability access section. Next slide. Now, this is our third and final section of the presentation. This is a second research example. When we've developed some of our proposals, we've been criticized by certain entities saying how can you be developing something that uses computers on an Indian reservation? They have lower income. They don't use computers and so we found there is lot of assumptions about how Native Americans get their information, but there wasn't a lot of data. So we're very fortunate to receive a research utilization support help award funded through NIDRR and one of the things we did in that was an information use survey on reservations. Some of the folks from Turtle Mountain, we went out and asked them to be part of our survey. We asked anyone who could fill out a survey. Next slide. 25 Why this is important? Erich talked a lot at the beginning on why people should help us with our research or why is it important at all? Well, school districts and social service agencies, we spend millions of dollars and I don't know how many hours on fliers and public news announcements trying to reach people and their families. And yet on the reservation schools, involvement in IEP's is really low. Tribal vocational rehabilitation projects often are operating below capacity. So up with of the questions we asked is how much of that information gets to the people it's intended for? Next slide. We do computer integrated training. We were very interested in how many Native Americans used computers and how many had access and when we went to sources like the NTIA, who do the famous studies on the digital divide, we found that very often in their table they have a little asterisk next to Native American saying not enough information to be useful. And it's not that they did a bad study. They did a very good study, but if you take a thousand people and Native Americans are only 1 percent of the population, you're going to get (inaudible) and only half of them live on reservations and you're only going to get (inaudible). So what we've done here is we have a larger sample of computer usage of Native Americans with disabilities and their families on Indian reservations and yet that's very specific, but that's the people we're specifically interested in helping to serve. Next slide. How we got this sample -- this is a picture on the left of a young man who attended a couple of our workshops and he dressed for a grass dance. We started outdoor to door on reservations. Then we had a couple of people, including Erich who went to a pow-wow and then we also collected data in our training 26 workshop. So most of our surveys came from those three different sources. Next slide. The demographic, for example, we had a total of 305 people and out of those -- of course not every single person completed every single person, but 297 of them told us their age. And the average age was 35, but we had a fair amount of variance. The educational level -- 1296 people told us their level and the (296) and so just a little bit under 13 years of education. Next slide -- of the 305 people 61 percent were female. So that's not completely representative. In rural tribal members it was 93 percent were members Rand 100 percent all of them were people who had a disability. Erich could you explain a little bit for people who don't know what an enrolled tribal member is or what that means? Erich? >> ERICH: Sore by that. I had it on mute because I was getting some static. An enrolled tribal member is a person who has a quarter degree of Indian blood from this reservation. For me to be enrolled in my reservation, my dad and my mom together combined Spirit Lake (inaudible) needs to equal up to one-quarter. And I think that's true for a lot of reservations. It's not true for a lot of reservations, they go by something similar. So to be an enrolled tribal member, you have to have some ancestry that goes back forever. >> ANNMARIA: Next slide. Now here is what we were really interested in finding out. Out of these 305 people with disabilities living on the Great Plains reservations, how many of them actually had E-mail accounts? And we found it was 62 percent. How many of them owned a computer? 58 percent. More 27 than half. And how many of them had Internet access at home, 54 percent. Now, one of the things we would have liked to ask, how many of them had high speed Internet which we really think is a very low portion. That will be our next survey. Next slide. The other question we had is what media did they get information from? I think Erich alluded to this first response a little earlier, 89 percent of the people said they had listened to the radio at least once a week. More than two-thirds of the folks, 68 percent, said they listened to the radio every day. Part of this may be due to the fact that I think all the reservations we surveyed had their own radio stations. And that was the most common one. We also asked what radio station you listened to and that was the most common. 42 percent of the people read a newspaper every day and 76 percent said they read a newspaper at least once a week. Here is the really interesting thing to us, 41 percent of the people said they are on the Internet every day. So when those folks say how can you use the Internet to reach Native Americans, don't you know what we know based on this survey is that Native Americans with disabilities and their families, the folks we're trying to reach, are likely to use the Internet every day as to read a newspaper. And they are almost as likely, 39 percent, to read their E-mail every day. Now, what those figures tell you certainly is those should not be the only means of contacting the people, because what we see on the far right-hand side of the slide, 29 percent of the folks said use the Internet less than once a month and 35 percent read their E-mail less than once a month. So I'm not saying you should be using one of these sources to contact everybody all the time, but for those who don't, for those who are assuming this isn't an appropriate way to reach Native Americans 28 with disabilities, I think that's a flawed assumption. >> ERICH: Let me interject. Getting back to the false assumptions, in doing my interviews, I found out that a lot of the young parents used -- they were interested in their child's disabilities, the nature of the child's disability, what it was and how to address it and so on and so forth, and those individuals felt more comfortable getting on the Internet and finding the information on the Internet as opposed to asking somebody. Go ahead. >> ANNMARIA: And I was surprised, too, when I read some of your field notes, especially from the -- you did a bunch of interviews at standing rock and a couple of other places, and when you asked people where they found information, they said they went and searched the Internet. Next slide -- newsletters -- we spend a lot of money and a lot of time and many of our organizations creating newsletters and how many advisory committees I've sat on where people are talking about getting information out and one of the most common things they'll say is send it home with the head start kids. Head start does a newsletter. All the kids have copies. Send it home with head start. But I was surprised to find that 75 percent of the people we interviewed said they red the head start newsletter less than once a month. They may be they don't have a child in head start, but I've often seen where anything from substance abuse prevention programs to voc rehab will send information with head start families because they know the parents will get it. They are coming and picking up their child and we found that that wasn't a factor in reaching a large group in the community. The same with elementary school, middle school, high school and voc rehab newsletters, all of them -- over 60 percent of the respondents said they saw them less than once a month. And again, if you put 29 together the first two columns, weekly an monthly, about 38 percent said they do read the elementary school newsletter once a month. And some of those people don't have a child in elementary school. So again, it surprised me actually because I'm a bad parent and I would throw those away, but it is one effective way. And so it was good to see how many people were getting information that way and our next survey, one of the things we should ask is how many people have children in elementary school, how many people have children at each different level. So we may want to think about that. One of the reasons -- I don't know if anyone has asked a question on this why we asked people if they or someone in their family had a disability is because when we originally started this research way back prior to the particular project, we asked do you have a disability? And people were very offended by that and it's like Erich said at the beginning about being Indianonish and wanting to keep your personal information personal. We had people ask us what business is it of yours? Why do you want to know? And that's why our question said do you or a family member have a disability. So we've been a little cautious in asking too much personal information. Next slide -- we see people used to put out informational fliers, and again I was a little surprised by these results because I get -- I get all my information off the Internet and I don't pay attention to those things, but 38 percent of the folks told us that they got information -- fliers posted in stores and businesses. So about as often as people said they read their E-mail, they said they got information from the lowest tech things they could think of -- fliers in grocery stores. The tribal administration building -- I truly expected that that would be 30 the most common one. I was a little surprised it was less common. A fourth of people said they got information from fliers in the tribal administration building. Over half the folks said at least once a month they read a flyer there and got some information from it. I thought the casino would be the most likely. Only 16 percent said they ever got their information -- they got information weekly from a cast sin oh and 57 percent said less than once a movement I don't know if some of that is being socially appropriate that you don't want to be seen there that often, but I think the key point is that all of these showed 30 or 40 percent of people say, yes, they did get information at least monthly from flyers posted in these areas. So it is an effective way to communicate. (inaudible). Now, I just had a couple of ending comments about our surveys. First of all, we've seen very fewer organizations (inaudible) tribal members using websites or E-mail. If you put in Native American and disabilities, you really won't find very much, so this is a cost effective way to reach a substantial number of people. So it's being very underutilized. The second thing is we correlated the amount of use of print and electronic sources and so we had a combination of how often people used the Internet and their E-mail and we correlated that with how often they get information from fliers and from newsletters and what we found is that for many people those electronic messages are a reminder or reinforce the information they heard on the radio. They read the newsletter, they saw the fliers and it's in their E-mail, but as Erich said earlier, the recruitment of subjects, we found it important to advertise often, to contact people early, to give them frequent reminders. If I had a dollar every time someone said, oh, geez, is that today? I completely 31 forgot -- we would very, very rich and we could endow our own webcast. So E-mail reminders, the Internet -- for many people a second source of information is a reminder. There were also people -- (inaudible) -- there were also people that the Internet E-mail was their only source of information. They didn't read the newsletters or look at fliers or read the newspapers. They got everything off the Internet in their E-mail. So if you're not using those sources we're missing those folks. As Erich said, by and large, they are the younger folks. And this is our last slide. A little disturbing note, we're still completely missing some people, because about 16 percent of those we surveyed said they don't read newsletters or the fliers or E-mail or the Internet. And I think one thing that tells us is at the very minimum we ought to be advertising on the radio. And we actually started applying these results in our own research in our own recruitment of subjects for our training sessions and what we found is since we started advertising on the Internet, since we started advertising in our mailed newsletters, to our E-mail lists and on the radio, we've had the number of people come to go our workshops increase noticeably. It does work, but it's not yet enough. And Erich? >> ERICH: Yes, I'm here listening on the privacy -- any closing comments? Are we waiting for the questions at this time? Okay, we're ready for the questions. >> JOANN: We have about 20 minutes lift so we can take some questions if we have any. I have not received any by E-mail yet. >> FRANK: Joann, Hi, this is Frank. We do have a couple of really interesting discussion points that we can certainly go over right now and this is based on the presentation. I think the conversation that -- the information 32 we received was just excellent, very interesting. And I'll just start off this with a comment to you both, I wonder if you could sort of talk about the research work that you do as it pertains to social justice issues. I think this is a recurring theme in a lot of research that is culturally competent and I noticed in your conversation about the types of questions and the types of research activities and project activities that you do, have to be relevant and important to the community. So I was wondering if Erich or AnnMaria would like to talk about or elaborate on your perspective regarding social justice and research? >> ERICH: Well, I could talk about that first and then add to it. The reason why I'm calling from this classroom is because I just completed a workshop that we call tribal leaders with character. And tribal leaders with character is an attempt to address what we say is the huge number of ethical violations that occur daily in the reservation workforce. So far I have -- I have done this presentation to 34 reservation residents, and each one of them told me the same thing. It's about time. And they encouraged me to put a Phase II proposal and in the Phase II proposal we are looking at developing an introduction into reservation ethics in the workplace, an advanced course and along with three or four -- I think five workshops that are going to be presented to different groups, Board of Directors, manages,s, and maybe some seminars for different organizations, you know, how to get ethics involved in foster homes, taking care of foster kids. So that is one area that's kind of related to social justice. >> FRANK: Great. >> ANNMARIA: I had a couple of thoughts on that. One is when I see 33 people not receiving justice, I think one of the reasons is there is a power differential. One reason you treat me fairly is I make you do it. And one way of making people empowered, and I know that's a very common term these days, but if you really want people to have more power, you want them to have more knowledge. And I think about my third daughter when she was born, she had some very severe problems and she needed speech therapy for years and I knew she was entitled to it. And when I was at the university, I said she needs speech therapy. She needs it three times a week and they said, well, you know, once a week -- look, she's three. She doesn't talk. She needs it three times a week and I knew I could go and ask for a fair hearing and I knew I could go to arbitration. I knew that I had all these rights. I knew that speech pathology existed and I look at her now and I wonder where would we have been -- where would she be if we didn't know that. And Erich didn't mention this, but he's been doing the special education rights which is also part of the award we received from NIDRR on reservations. (inaudible). To let parents know that you have these rights and the stories we've heard are just credible. I mentioned some of them in our last newsletter. They paid out $700 because they were told you and your husband have a job and you can afford it. She went and got her $700 back because he told her to do it. I think that's where it makes a difference. One people know that there are these rights that they have to get the same services for their child as if they lived in Malibu, that's empowering and that's going to reduce some of the inequity because having started that years ago, we were doing this training with the North Dakota council on developmental disabilities and a mother stood up and she came up to us and she said you know that's really good for you two people up here with your doctorates 34 to say I need to be involved in my child's education, but I didn't know I had these rights until this very minute in this workshop. How about you come up with some way to tell us what services my child has and how we can get them and that's what we did. That's probably more of an answer than you wanted to know. >> FRANK: That was wonderful. I have one other question or comment. This pertains to the research and evaluations strategy that is you used. During the presentation, I noted what I would describe as one explicit strategy and then another one that was as explicit and I was hoping that you can elaborate on it. The explicit strategy that I thought was very compelling, and I think Dr. Longie you mentioned this, pertained to encouraging family members on the reservation to encourage, recruit, engage, share high quality information about research and resources with others in order to bring people into the fold, so to speak. And this sounded to me like a cultural broker or knowledge broker approach. Now, the other approach that I think I heard but may be you can elaborate on more pertained to questions that other researchers often asked that are quite honestly irrelevant to the Native American community or population on the reservation and I think what you suggested is that there is a real need for more natural language questions, questions and input from the perspective of the community if the research is going to be worth doing. Can you comment on that? >> ERICH: And maybe my answer will address both you are questions. Years ago when I moved from teaching third grade to a college professor, I learned very quickly if I want to get young men and women to get their GED's, it didn't matter what teaching method I used, I just had to get them to like and trust me. And once they trusted me and were comfortable with me, it didn't 35 matter what the strategy or method I used, they would do it simply because they wanted to please me so to speak. That's the approach I think we try to use when I go out and I get somebody I know from a different district and that person will go out and try to get their relatives and like I mentioned is the reason why they want to participate, is because they are friends with that person or are related to that person. If we want to get people involved, I'm surprised that the people who showed up -- some older people, some younger people, and some people who I would not have thought of approaching and when I use these other individuals, they got me a surprising number of people. And I don't know if that answers both questions. If you want me, I can answer another one. >> FRANK: Dr. De Mars, did you have any comments? >> ANNMARIA: I think in terms of asking questions in natural language, I think it's more than that. It's asking questions that matter to the people that we're going to request be involved in our research. So I don't know that there is a different, nicer, more appropriate way you could say I want to compare the rate of fetal alcohol syndrome on the Turtle Mountain reservation and some other reservation or I want to compare the rate of severe learning disabilities between Native Americans and African Americans. That might be of interest to some people within the special ed program in the tribe, but to most people it will not be of any interest at all. I think instead what we need to do is ask questions that are important and relevant to the people's lives. And then everything we do from our dissemination to our research project continually assess how well we're meeting their needs. >> ERICH: When you talk about those questions, what I tried to say but I guess I didn't do a good job of it, is it doesn't matter sometimes with 36 some Indianonish person what the questions are and how you ask it, they have to trust you and they have to like you. That's what I was trying to get across. >> FRANK: Yeah. Absolutely. >> ERICH: And so that's what I was trying to say. >> FRANK: Yeah, absolutely. I think trust is a real important theme in the literature on cultural competence and working with diverse communities. I'm wondering if you could just take a minute just to tell us a little bit more about your rush ward, the research utilization award. The whole issue of knowledge of use, to me, it's so incredibly important to understanding what type of strategies a community should consider or take in order to get the word out, in order to communicate effectively? So would you like to say a word or two about the rush project and what you are doing with that? >> ERICH: You want to start, Ann or you want me to? >> ANNMARIA: I'll start. Well, we're still in the process of analyzing data, the information use survey was one part of it. We'll be collecting the data analyzing it. And Erich has some field notes and you can talk about that and then we're also doing an IEP special education workshop where it's a shorter version of our facility access workshop because what we want to say is can we increase people's knowledge on a very specific part of disability information in a shorter period of time. Because you'll not get most people for two days. He has been going around to different reservations and we've done a couple of variations where he did an hour and a half or two-hour session versus three hours and then a third thing we're getting to is trying to come up with some evaluation of how much knowledge do people get from the website. Since we got the award, our website went from 2,000 visitors a month 37 to 30,000 visitors a month. >> ERICH: And what we do with our three hour presentation or abbreviated presentation, depending on the audience, is we show the parent their legal rights. And the presentation is redundant and it's redundant because we want to say the same thing over and over again. It is the parents' responsibility to make sure special education department is providing all the resources to their child. And we're approaching it from the parents, you need to hold these people accountable. And when I worked with special education departments, every time I tell them the reason I'm there, the first thing they tell me is how qualified they are and what a wonderful job they are doing. If that was the case, then why do we have such low involvement of any parents in the IEP. That's the interesting part of it. I know for example, one of the things we say is you can't speak for yourself because a lot of parents say they are intimidated by the special education teacher, then bring somebody along who can speak up for you. So I think to me that's the most important part of that rush project. >> FRANK: Great. Thank you. I'd like to remind our listeners if they are interested in learning more about the research utilization award, they can go to www.researchutilization.org to learn about that project. I have one sort of final question if we have enough time. Joann, how are we doing on time? >> JOANN: We've got about seven minutes left. So we do have time for another question or two. >> FRANK: I'd just like to you to tell us a little bit about your capacity building efforts with regard to doctoral students or you mentioned new researchers you were bringing in. I'm wondering if you are also encouraging 38 Native American scholars to advance and go into this line of work and how that issue of building capacity matters for improving the -- not only the social justice, but outcomes for parents and families with disabilities. >> ERICH: I'll take that -- I can take the first part of the question. I think just the fact of who I am and where I go and how I talk does a lot to encourage other people. The reason I talk the way I do is because I never -- I was never able to -- I had a speech problem due to a lack of being able to hear the difference between vowels and that was never caught because there is no special ed back in those days. So I can't pronounce them and so I still talk that way today. My hair is long, it's in a ponytail and I'm just your regular reservation Indian. And when I go to a classroom with young Native Americans whether they are parents in college, I hope I give them the impression that if I could do it, anybody can do it. And Ann, I'll let you take the last question. >> ANNMARIA: I just wanted to back up what Erich said, too, being a role model. I remember as this graduation, they stopped the graduation because we were all surprised and they made a comment that he was the first member of the Spirit Lake Dakota to get a doctorate and (inaudible) after his graduation, and the number of kids that were 13, 14, 16, high school kids, kids who were like a freshman in college, they had their mother next to them poke them and say, you, you're going to be the next one from our tribe to get a doctorate. I think that put something in people's minds that, you know, he indict. So it's no longer something that is outside the realm of possibility. It's now an expectation. And I think being somebody who is from the reservation, like Erich said, they lived next door. Again, it's not someone that was adopted out and 39 moved away and got their doctorate from the University of Minnesota. It's somebody who drove 180-mile round trips. It lets everybody around know they can do that. As far as bringing in new, young researchers -- we are a for profit company, but what we've done is wherever possible hire people who are from the reservations where we're doing work. Willie Davis who was a VR counselor of the year from Turtle Mountain is our site coordinator. (inaudible) was one of the people doing training there for us. Brock -- (inaudible). When those people come out of graduate school, we've been a place for them to find employment, to find support to do research in the area that they are interested, and I think the mentoring, other people saying it's important I think is key and I remember when I was in graduate school, many, many years ago being told you don't want to do research on your own ethnic group then you won't be considered as objective. And we don't believe that. We instead of looking at it as a weakness that those people want to do research in an area of personal experience, we look at as a strength. >> FRANK: Great. Thank you very much for your comment. Joann? >> JOANN: I think we're close to the end of our time and I want to thank everyone for being here today. I especially want to thank Dr. De Mars and Dr. Longie for your presentations. They were very interesting and I think you shared information with us that you have gained over all your years of experience that other people really don't have and I really appreciate you taking the time to share it with us. And also through using the resources of the research utilization support and help project for your utilization award. I will send some more information to everyone who did register and gave us an 40 E-mail address. We'll share some more information about the rush project. The url, Frank that you gave out earlier today is not working for the next couple of days because again our office is moving to a new location. And our network is down until Monday. So on Monday we'll be sending E-mail to everyone who did preregister and you can follow up to get some more information about this useful award. I also want to encourage everyone that did participate to fill out our brief evaluation form and I'll mention that again in the E-mail that I sent. This will be very helpful to us at the NCDDR as well as to our presenters. It will just take a few minutes and you can do it now when we sign off. You go to the evaluation link on the ILRU page that you used to get to the webcast initially. It does have a rather long url so I will not read it out but you can follow it again if you don't have that page up by going to www.ilru.org and then go to the webcast calendar on the left-hand side of the page, and follow the links until you get to the webcast page that includes the presentation handouts, a link to go to the webcast and then there is a link that says please complete an evaluation following the presentation. We really do appreciate that. I also want to thank the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research, NIDRR, that provided funding for today's webcast. And the staff at ILRU because without their efforts the webcast could not have taken place, especially want to thank Rob Dickehuth who takes care of the technology and Marie Bryant who is our realtime captioner. And audio file and a transcript of the webcast will be available on the ILRU website archive page in a couple of days. Again, this is at www.ilru.org. I want to thank you again on behalf of my cohost Frank Martin and the rest of 41 the NCDDR staff. We'd like to encourage you to visit our website next week once it's back up at www.ncddr.org for more information and can you see additional information about some of our archived webcasts on the topic of disability, diversity and research outreach. That's it for today's webcast and thank you all very much.