ADA Transportation Part IV of V. 
Presented by:  Marilyn Golden. 

Jacquie:  Good afternoon everyone.  Welcome to today's Webcast, Transportation:  General Rules Applying to All Modes of Transportation -- The Focus on Stop Announcements and Equipment Maintenance.  

This is Part 4 of a five part series.  And our presenter today is Marilyn Golden of the Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund. The Webcast today is sponsored by the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research, NIDRR, who funds your host for today's program, the DBTAC Southwest ADA Center.  I'm your moderator, Jacquie Brennan, and I am with the ILRU project Southwest ADA Center. I'll be assisting with today's presentation. 

For those of you listening to the Webcast today, to submit your questions, click on the e-mail button on your screen or you can e-mail them directly to webcast@ilru.org.  If you have any technical difficulties today, please feel free to call us at (713)520-0232. And again, thanks for joining us today.  

Now, I'm going to turn it over to our presenter, Marilyn Golden.  Good afternoon, Marilyn. 

Marilyn:  Sorry, I'm here.  Hello everybody.  As Jacquie said, this is the fourth of a five part series on ADA transportation.  I want to take this opportunity to express my deepest thanks to the DBTAC Southwest ADA Center for all the Webcasts we've been able to do in terms of getting out the information on ADA transportation. 

Today, we're focusing on general rules that apply -- not just to paratransit -- but to many modes of transit including equipment maintenance, stop announcements, lift and securement use, service animals, the ADA's prohibitions against retaliation and harassment, and other miscellaneous provisions in ADA transportation. 

It so happens that this morning just in the previous hour, Easter Seals Project Action had a learning event covering some similar territory that I was just on that had David Knights from the Federal Transit Administration Office of Civil Rights.  So I may be adding some things that came out on that call.  

I don't know if we'll have some of the people who were on that call.  It's covered some similar territory, but we'll actually be going into some additional areas. First, I want to go briefly over your material's list.  If you've been part of the previous Webcast we've done, you'll see some of the same materials.  

The first is the report from the National Council on Disability that DREDF co-authored -- the current state of transportation for people with disabilities in the United States.  We provided both an HTML version and a PDF version.  That report covers a lot of the information that has come to light that's important to the ADA transportation field since the original Department of Transportation regulation came out.  So we encourage people to look to that report for that kind of information, at least up through early 2004 when we sent in the draft.  The information keeps coming out, and some of it is new even since the report that we'll give today. 

The second material is DREDF's ADA transportation outline, which we will refer to as we go through some of the basic requirements.  You can use that as a resource in a lot of other areas that we're not going over today.
 
The third is the leaflet from DREDF called some ADA transportation resources, which I would like to look over briefly with you now.  This sheet first talks about DREDF's availability for ADA training which you can read if you're interested in that.  It also discusses how people can obtain even without using DREDF training, DREDF's ADA training manual called the ADA -- an implementation guide -- also known as the blue book which has all the ADA requirements with all the information on any one topic in any one place.  So you don't have to look in five different places like you sometimes need to do in the regulation.  It's certainly not a substitute for the regulation in the sense that the regulation has a lot of detailed legal information that's not in the manual.  But the manual is a great resource for people who are not going to dig through the detailed regulations and just want to know the basic requirements that goes in also to a lot of detail.  And it has a good chapter on ADA transportation which brings together in a logical order all of those requirements.
 
Third on this sheet is the same report that you have as your material's Number 1, this report for the National Council on Disability.
 
And lastly, I want to focus for a minute on the ADA Web site of the Federal Transit Administration.  That can be found at www.fta.dot.gov/ada.  And again, that's Number 4 on this material -- Number 3, some ADA transportation resources.  And it has a lot of important resources for you.
 
It includes DOT ADA guidance documents such as the one detailing that FTA views it as a part of the ADA regulation that paratransit systems must provide door-to-door service to people whose disability necessitate it.  And many other guidance documents are there -- very good useful things.
 
It also has FTA's ADA complaint form that you can fill out if you feel there has been discrimination in the area of ADA transportation.  It's easy to do, and you're encouraged to do it.
 
It also has very important FTA ADA compliance reviews.  The Federal Transit Administration Office of Civil Rights has done in-depth compliance reviews of a number of transit agencies across the U.S.  Many of them are posted there.  They are very detailed analyses of how the cities that have been reviewed how their transit agency does or does not comply.  And they're very good resources for advocates and for transit agencies to learn how to comply with the ADA.  Even if your city has not been reviewed, reading those compliance reviews, there's a lot of important FTA determinations in there about what compliance requires, about best practices, and how things should be monitored.
 
It also links to all the ADA transportation regulations and technical standards and the National Transit Institute courses that impact ADA transportation which anyone can go to.  Transit agency personnel can go for free.
 
It also has links to the U.S. DOJ, Department of Justice, ADA Web site.  As long as we're on FTA resources, I want to mention also that there is an e-mail address that you can write to get questions to the Federal Transit Administration.  And that address is fta.adaassistance@dot.gov.
 
Looking back again at your materials, after Number 3, we go to Number 4.  You can actually click on that and get the link right to the FTA rider complaint form.
 
Five is something on bus stops and improvements that I'll look at later in the Webcast.  Six, seven, eight and nine are also things I'll address later in the Webcast.  So at this point, I think I will go on to the basic content we wanted to talk about today.
 
Let's start on the DREDF ADA transportation outline, which is material Number 2.  So if you have that outline, you want to search for the word maintenance which is on Page 3 near the top.  Once you're there, you'll see -- if you go back a little bit or if you have it printed -- go to the bottom of the previous page, and you'll see it under general heading, providing nondiscriminatory service.
 
We're going to start today with the area of maintenance.  Transit agencies are required by the ADA to maintain an operative condition, those features of facilities and vehicles necessary to make them accessible.  That includes lifts, securement devices, elevators and escalators used by some people with disabilities, signage, and systems to facilitate communication with persons with impaired vision or hearing.
 
Accessibility features must be repaired promptly.  When one is out of order, the transit agency must take reasonable steps to accommodate people with disabilities who would otherwise use the feature.  And I want to add automatic stop announcement enunciators are another aspect of the equipment that should be maintained as well as less elaborate equipment, such as goose net microphones or any other equipment provided for stop announcements.
 
Another important point on maintenance is that isolated or temporary interruptions in service or access due to maintenance or repairs are not considered discrimination.  But a pattern of such interruptions of service or an overly long interruption could be considered discrimination -- the idea here being that anything can break one time. If it's not maintained properly, then it could be broken for too long or breaks again quickly and that could be a violation of the ADA.
 
There are additional requirements specifically for publicly funded bus transit.  Transit agencies are required to establish a system of regular and frequent maintenance checks of lifts and also ramps and kneeling features and these other bus-based accessibility features sufficient to determine if they're operated.
 
During these checks, a best practice is that lifts, when cycled, should be cycled with weight on them.  The transit agency must ensure that vehicle operators -- drivers -- report by the most immediate means available any failure of a lift or ramp or kneeler to operate and service.
 
Once such a device is discovered to be inoperative, the transit agency must take the vehicle out of service before the beginning of the vehicle's next service day and ensure that the ramp or kneeler or lift is repaired before the vehicle returns to service.  You can't even put a broken lift on an inaccessible route.
 
There is an exception that you can remove a vehicle from service to repair it, if there's no spare vehicle.  There usually is a spare. Transit agencies maintain what's called a spare ratio.  So there are generally spare vehicles, certainly more so in larger agencies -- municipal or urban larger transit agencies.  But if there is not, and if taking the vehicle out of service would reduce transportation for the general public, you can keep a bus with an inoperable lift or ramp or kneeler and service for no more than five days if the population area you're serving is 50,000 or fewer or three days if it's over 50,000 in population.
 
If the lift is inoperative and the headway to the next vehicle on the route exceeds 30 minutes, the transit agency must provide promptly alternative transportation to the individual.
 
In terms of the headway being more than 30 minute and providing alternate transportation, it has come to be a best practice, not necessarily for that alternative transportation to be ADA paratransit.  A lot of fixed route systems are -- and this is recommended -- for the systems to buy additional road supervisor vehicles that are accessible -- ramp equipped mini vans, and they can be used as back ups for broken lifts.  It's a good practice because such vehicles are tied into the same dispatch system as the buses whereas paratransit is a whole different dispatch system.
 
I want to continue on maintenance but look at the MCD report for some additional information that is in that report but not in the outline.  So to navigate there, if you're using the HTML version, search for bus equipment maintenance.  The first time you find it, that's the table of contents listing for that section.  If you click on that table of contents listing, you'll get to this section.  If you're using the PDF version, go to the page that's labeled Page 30, and I will give people a moment to do that.
 
There you find the section on bus equipment maintenance.  And I'm going to address a few points that begin at the bottom of the next page -- at the bottom of Page 31.  So if you're using HTML, go a few paragraphs forward to the section 'but is it really broken.'.
 
We have an example, and I'm going to draw from that example a situation in one city where what was found in a certain lawsuit was that either the lift was broken but the driver did not report it or the lift was not broken, but the driver falsely claimed it was to avoid having to board a person with a disability.  In either event, it was a violation of the ADA.
 
Then going a little further down after the long quote, I want to address this point about older buses.  In some locations, lift break downs are blamed on older buses with outdated lifts that are difficult to maintain or take a long time to fix because replacement parts are not readily available.  But the problem can actually be that transit agencies keep buses and service far too long and give priority to rail systems while letting buses age and become dilapidated.
 
Sometimes bus engines and transmissions have been replaced, but the lifts are not replaced.  If a transit agency decides to keep buses in service beyond the FTA defined 12 year useful life for these buses, they really should consider replacing the lifts.  If there's a claim that structural difficulty with installing new lifts into older buses are a problem, advocates can ask that these difficulties be verified by an engineering study.
 
A related problem to maintenance -- slightly different but I'll go ahead and mention it at this time -- is buses that simply do not stop for travelers using wheelchairs.  This is still a problem in some cities, often called a drive by or a pass by.  Generally, intentional bus pass byes of people with disabilities by buses, generally speaking are violations of the ADA, unless all the securement areas of the bus are occupied with wheelchair users.
 
As I was saying, transit agencies have varied a lot towards their level of compliance with these requirements and practices.  I know there was one wild story that was told me by someone from the Department of Justice at one point where a city had a lot of broken lifts.  And in one case, a driver actually offered to drive around with the wheelchair user outside on the deployed broken lift.  Do not try this at home.  Not a safe practice.
 
I want to now -- we promised some new material with some best practices.  I want to go to -- I had the opportunity to be at a meeting convened a couple of years ago by the Federal Transit Administration that had some transit agencies and advocates and some of the really experienced transit agencies with complying with the ADA.  There was some very interesting statements and tidbits of things that these agencies have volunteered.  I want to mention some of them.
 
One mentioned -- I think this was in Boston -- that they found that sweeping out the bus in a different way helped keep dirt from accumulating to impede the ramp.  So sometimes very easy maintenance practices can affect access to the bus.
 
In another situation, it was found that when there were claims that there was problems with maintaining the equipment because of corrosion, it was able to be reduced just by replacing the chemicals used and the procedures used to clean the buses with different cleaning, washing, and salting procedures.  So it's important to make sure the maintenance practices that a transit agency is using really are the best ones. Sometimes they may be having a problem where simply changing those procedures would address.
 
The FTA at that meeting mentioned that they've had a lot of different results to their compliance reviews -- buses and service with disabled lifts, buses with permanently disabled lifts, failure to notify dispatch of waiting passenger with wheelchair, a system map that incorrectly stated all the routes were inaccessible.  So a lot of different problems.
 
There was another one that was mentioned that really was an example of best practices.  It had a hundred percent accessible fleet of low floor buses, a strong system of checks and ramp cycling, general policies for accessibility, alternative transportation provisions, thorough complaint processes, and a good working relationship with the union, which included adopting aggressive discipline, and also good working relationship with riders with disabilities.  So it really is possible to have all those in place.
 
One transit agency manager volunteered that -- actually, this was the general manager -- volunteered that when he heard there were bus pass byes of disabled passengers -- wheelchair using passengers -- he had asked all his drivers that if someone was waiting at the stop and the lift was broken, that the driver must stop and wait with the individual until the driver can tell the individual how the problem will be handled. He reported that his lift reliability rose overnight.  This is a suggestion that maybe some of those pass byes were actually claims that the lift was broken, but they weren't really.  That was a way to sort out the difference between those two things.
 
Let's move on back to the outline.  Actually, are there any questions at this point?  This might be a good time to take some questions.
 
Jacquie:  I have only one.  Are there scoping requirement that provide guidelines on the minimum weight that a wheelchair lift on city bus should handle?  Some wheelchairs may weigh more than 600 pounds, including the person using the wheelchair, and some lifts have been known not to handle this much weight.
 
Marilyn:  I was going to talk about the common wheelchair issue very soon.  I will just say briefly now, and then I want to get to it, actually.  FTA has said that it's required to carry -- actually, why don't we go ahead and do it now.  You can find it in your outline.
 
Under lift and securement use, the regulations state that all common wheelchairs and their users must be transported in the transit agency's vehicles or other conveyances.  Common wheelchairs are those that can fit on a lift or ramp which complies with the specifications in DOT's technical standards, which is 30 by 48 inches and weighing no more than 600 pounds when occupied.  And that includes a 3-wheel scooter.
 
Now, if you look at that requirement -- and I want to look carefully with you.  If you look at that requirement carefully, you see that this is really a standard for lifts and ramps, not for individuals.  And it was never intended to be a screen for individuals, though the regulation has kind of set it up to be that.  That is a concern that we have found. What FTA is saying these days -- and I heard them say it this morning on this other call -- that it is true that transit agencies in their eyes are allowed to exclude passengers that did not meet this definition. They are strongly encouraged to take them if they can.
 
A concern that DREDF has is that sometimes the wheelchair definition has been used to exclude people in a really inappropriate way. And to talk about that, I'd like to direct you to material Number 9, which is DREDF's comments on the recent Department of Transportation Notice of Proposal Rule Making.  So you may want to click on that material.  Go to the very end of it.  Then page upward, and you'll see not too far from the end, there's a list with a number of bullets on it.  That's the section we want.  If you go up a few paragraphs above that list of bullets, the heading is DOT Number 6.  It was question 6 DOT asked -- changes in mobility devices, deviations from common wheelchairs.
 
Basically, DOT asked a question about this issue, and DREDF pointed out what we've said here, which is that specification was never intended to be used as a screen for individuals.  We gave examples of a number of problems that have been reported to us where we really think that transit agencies are going too far in excluding people who's mobility devices deviate from a so-called common wheelchair.
 
The first one, for example, is such a good example, and I'll summarize it.  An individual uses a wheelchair which is capable of reclining.  The person never reclines the chair though when they're using the lift or ramp to enter or exit the vehicle.  During the ride they recline due to severe chronic back pain.  This individual has been riding for a long time on the agency's vehicles this very way.  But one day she was told that because she declines during the ride, she will no longer be accepted for ADA paratransit because of this common wheelchair issue.
 
We have a number of other example.  The third one was, again, about reclining.  And the individual was concerned about filing a complaint. Another example was somebody who wanted to buy a scooter, but she was concerned about the dimensions.  And she called the transit agency, and they said that we could working something out.  She bought and it, and then she was excluded.
 
And the last example -- I won't look at them all.  The last one on the list, a wheelchair is measured during a paratransit eligibility reassessment, and the user is told that they were approved in a different chair, even though the person has always ridden the system using that chair.  There really is more guidance needed on this.  Basically, we're hoping the DOT will require transit agencies to transport all mobility devices that their vehicles can accommodate unless the person would occupy space needed by somebody else. 

Also, many of the reports about exclusions that seem to DREDF to really be unfair and go too far have been on paratransit, and it suggests that it may be an attempt by a transit agency to reduce their paratransit cost by excluding individuals based on common wheelchair issues, which is not appropriate.
 
The other issue is that a person should be allowed to ride paratransit or fixed route transit in the mobility device that they prefer.  You can't say to someone, well, you need to get another device.  So there are legitimate exclusions.  We encourage transit wherever it's possible.  And we encourage also in the spirit of this that the dimensions really apply to sort of using the lift and the ramp.  Anything else on that issue, Jacquie?
 
Jacquie:  No.  I have no other questions right now.
 
Marilyn:  Okay.  Let's move on then in the area of lifts and securement issues.  The transit agency is not required to permit wheelchair users to ride in places other than designated securement locations on the vehicle.  The transit agency may require a wheelchair user to permit his or her wheelchair to be secured, or I will add that securement is allowed to be optional.  That is an FTA policy now, that a transit agency may allow securement to be optional.
 
But transit agencies must use securement locations to ensure that the wheelchair remains in the securement area.  But even if the securement system cannot accommodate a particular wheelchair, transportation cannot be denied to its user.
 
So again, the basic principles that were not required -- wheelchair users may be required to be in securement locations.  The transit agency may make securement optional.  But if the individual wants it, they must provide it.  They must help with it.  If the securement system cannot accommodate a particular wheelchair, transportation cannot be denied to that person even so.
 
Moreover, the passenger may not be required by the transit agency to use a seat belt unless all passengers in the vehicle are required to use seat belts.  The transit agency also may not require that a wheelchair user transfer to a vehicle seat.  Where necessary or upon request, the staff of a transit agency must assist people with disabilities in boarding and using the vehicle -- with the securement, with getting on the ramp, sometimes with the lifts.  If it's necessary for drivers to leave their seats, then the drivers must do so.
 
Another point on securement that I think is not in your outline that I want to mention is that it's a very common error for drivers to think they're securing a wheelchair user by simply attaching the seat belt. That's not true.  Restraints for the chair must be used.  The ADA does not give a particular number of restraints, but the wheelchair is not supposed to be able to move any more than 2 inches in any direction under normal operating conditions -- which means not in a crash.  So under normal conditions, it has to be so secure that it can't move in any direction more than 2 inches.
 
Back to your outline, the transit agencies have to permit individuals with disabilities who do not use wheelchairs including standing individuals -- disabled people who may stand but be mobility impaired -- to use the lift or ramp.  Just about anyone who wants it should be allowed to use those things.
 
Also, that wheelchair users often have a preference for entering a lift platform in any particular direction, either backwards or forwards. The transit agency should respect that passenger's preference unless the only way of successfully doing it requires it to be one direction or the other or unless following the passenger's preference would pose a direct threat to health or safety.
 
Now, I said that transit agencies may allow securement to be optional, but that is not recommended on smaller vehicles like vans where securement really should be used.  Related to this issue of lift and securement use, I also want to bring everyone's attention to information that's in material Number 6, which is information sheet on the WC-19, voluntary standard for wheelchairs used as seats in motor vehicles.  This is not the standard, but it is a fact sheet or an information sheet about that standard.
 
A lot of times people talk about how wouldn't it be better if wheelchairs were manufactured in a way that is more friendly for use in transit.  And it really would be better.  Sometimes the way wheelchairs are engineered and designed is problematic both for the rider and the transit agency in terms of trying to secure them and otherwise use them in transit.
 
It has been difficult to get any required changes in the wheelchair industry with this.  But there has been some progress in that this WC-19 voluntary standard has been developed for mobility manufacturers that addresses wheelchairs used as seating in motor vehicles like a bus or a van.  And it includes wheelchair securement attachment points.  This was approved and issued in the year 2000.
 
Wheelchair manufacturers are slowly incorporating WC-19 in some of their product lines.  Not enough have it.  We encourage pressure on these manufacturers to add wheelchairs that include it.  We encourage individuals who are buying wheelchairs to buy wheelchairs that have -- sometimes it's called the transportation package or whatever it's called by the manufacturer -- these features that make them really more transit ready.
 
The best information on WC-19 is that I've given a Web site here that you can go to in the sheet.  We wish to see more action on that, but at least people should know about WC-19.
 
I also want to address one point on the lift and securement area that's in the NCD report.  So if you go over to that book this one is on Page 35.  And I wanted to look for -- or you can look for the heading resolving securement problems.  It's just a page or two beyond where we previously were.  Under the heading, resolving securement problems, if you go about one page further at the top of Page 36, there's a description about how some transit agencies have developed voluntary programs that examine individual wheelchairs, to identify and mark each one's best securement points.  Wheelchairs that are irregular in shape and size are fitted with yellow tether straps at securement points.  This is a description of a particular program of AC transit in the East Bay and the Oakland/Berkeley area in California where I live.  Other programs may be a little bit different, but they're excellent.  And some of them have had a lot of wheelchair users voluntarily have their best securement locations marked and also have good securement locations added.  So we encourage the development of these voluntary programs.
 
I could go on, but, Jacquie, if we have questions, I'm happy to take them.
 
Jacquie:  We have one that's about recorded stop announcements.
 
Marilyn:  Okay.  Then maybe I should talk about stop announcements before -- actually, why don't you give it to me.
 
Jacquie:  Sometimes the recorded stop announcements are such poor quality that I cannot understand them.  I recently requested a bus driver to give me a verbal stop announcement since I can't understand the recording, and he refused saying that the recording complies with ADA, and he doesn't have to do anything else.  Is he right?
 
Marilyn:  No, he's not.  It's important that stop announcements be audible.  Let me get to stop announcements in a little bit only because I want to stay in order.  And if I don't address everything in that question, Jacquie, please remind me, and we'll get back to it when we get there.
 
Jacquie:  Will do.
 
Marilyn:  In terms of continuing on your outline -- and some of these provisions are not all in the outline.  I hope they are.  I want to do now Item C, no bus stop discrimination.  The transit agency may not refuse to permit a passenger who uses a lift or a ramp to board or disembark from a vehicle at any designated stop.  In other words, the transit agency can't say this stop isn't accessible and you can't get off here unless the lift cannot be deployed at the stop or unless the lift will be damaged if it is deployed or unless all passengers are precluded from using the stop due to temporary conditions of the stop which are not under control of the transit agency.
 
And also in training, training is an important area.  The DOT ADA regulation is pretty brief about it.  It states each transit agency must ensure that personnel are trained to proficiency.  But FTA compliance reviews have asked transit agencies to do training in a lot of areas when they find that it's a component of a problem.  We've gotten a lot of punch out of that fairly minimal requirement.
 
I want to go into some other service provision requirements.  One is designated priority seats.  The transit agency may not require an individual with disabilities to use designated priority seats if the person does not want to use them.  But if they do wish to use them, drivers are required to ask others to move from designated seats or securement locations.  Priority seating or securement locations, they must ask people to move if they're there and an individual with a disability wishes to move them.  And moreover, signage must inform everybody that they may need to move from these seats.
 
Now we come to the stop announcement area.  There's quite a bit to say about stop announcements.  On fixed route systems the basic rule is that stops must be announced at transfer points with other fixed routes at other major intersections and destination points and at intervals along routes sufficient to permit people with visual impairments and really any disability to be oriented to their location.  Also any requested stop must be announced.
 
There's a little bit more detail on some of what's happening with stop announcements in the NCD report.  So let me refer you over to there and actually to Page 26, which is a little bit before where we were.  And you can look at the area called stop announcements.  You can search for that if you need to search and probably get to the table of contents entry and click on it, and you'll get to the stop announcement section.  For people using the PDF, that section starts on Page 26.
 
But what I want to address starts on Page 27.  It's actually the second quote in the section on stop announcements.  What we have sometimes seen is transit agencies in many cities have gotten automated stop announcement systems.  They have often been viewed as making a big improvement in the situation.  And in many times they will.  We are certainly in no way against automated stop announcements.
 
A concern that we have is, first of all, that everybody realize that it is possible to make -- why announcements work because some transit agencies may find automated systems to be economically burdensome, particularly small agencies.
 
Another concern that we've had is that we've seen -- certainly not all -- but some transit agencies using stop announcement technology as a panacea.  They think if I just buy this, it will solve the problem.  They put the systems in.  They don't do anything else to monitor and maintain the systems and make sure that the announcements are being provided.  And then we have a lot of problems.  Any technology like this has to be tested and monitored and updated, sometimes modified.
 
The operator performance has to be monitored, and discipline may sometimes need to be invoked to make sure that the equipment is maintained.  For example, on some transit systems, drivers have reportedly rendered the automated voice system disabled, despite even orders from management and their union not to do so.  I guess, as a new thing, sometimes drivers have not liked these systems.  Some drivers have turned the volume down, and there's all kinds of things that have happened.
 
So it's very important that transit agencies have a robust monitoring and disciplinary system and also not only monitoring operators, but also monitoring the performance of the equipment.
 
There's a variety of things that can go wrong even if the systems are treated as they should be properly by the bus driver.  For example, there was one agency, and there's a quote here on this where somebody reported that an error was being made.  Announcements were being made for the next stop while the bus was stopped at the previous stop, which could be dangerous.  An individual who is blind can get off the bus then and think there's going to be a stoplight and wait for it or think there's just a crosswalk and there's actually a stoplight.  It can be dangerous.
 
It's important to know that because the equipment doesn't always work, bus drivers should be trained to make the announcements themselves anyway.  Also, automated enunciators generally don't announce every single stop, especially in an urban center where the stops are coming rapidly.  But the ADA requires drivers to announce any requested stop. So therefore, logically, drivers need to be able and ready to make these announcements.
 
So what we like to encourage transit agencies to realize is that if they get automatic enunciators, that's a fine thing to do, but it doesn't mean they won't have to still train their drivers and monitor their drivers from doing announcements.  And we have seen particularly low rates of stop announcements in places where there are automated systems. But the systems are malfunctioning because drivers aren't as much monitored and expected to make them and aren't doing as well in making them.
 
As I said earlier, success in stop announcements has been attained in some locations without recourse to high tech solutions.  Salt Lake City was one place we learned about with incredibly high rates of compliance. I believe they were also going to get automatic enunciators.  I don't know if they started to install them yet.  But I know that it's a good example that good compliance can be achieved with live announcements, and there are other examples as well.
 
There's a number of things transit agencies can do to help drivers call out the stops or to ensure that they will that don't involve getting automatic enunciators.  For example, they can involve drivers in identifying the stops and developing the list and then providing that list to the drivers.  They can install simpler equipment to facilitate stop announcements like a goose net microphone or a lapel microphone or a sleeve microphone.  And sometimes these specialized microphones -- actually, they're not that specialized, but they're better than a general goose neck mic -- have made a real difference in improving stop announcement call rates.
 
The most important has been undertaking progressive discipline and combining that with incentives.  Discipline will ideally involve secret monitoring, but it's important that the diver's union first agree on the approach.  Only after monitoring is established and drivers are accustomed to it should secret monitoring be the basis for progressive discipline.
 
One more point in the NCD report here is that there was a complaint to the Federal Transit Administration that was resolved in a way that's important to this area.  The conclusion was reached that where there's a systematic problem with calling out bus stops, and therefore, a low rate of doing so, an individual with a disability who needs the stops in order to use the bus must be granted paratransit eligibility.
 
I want to use this example in the occasion of giving it to you to address the point that not only applies to stop announcements but also applies to equipment maintenance and also to the other area we were talking about, which is the issue of common wheelchairs.  The ADA has a bias toward the fixed route system.  We want people to be on fixed route when they can.  These provisions are very important in reducing a transit agency's paratransit burden making the fixed route into being a very good system.  Because if the stop announcements, for example, on the fixed route main line buses are poor, and therefore, visually impaired people or people with cognitive disabilities who need those stop announcements to orient themselves are using the paratransit system, that will only provide a lower degree of service sometimes and cost the transit agency a lot more money.  It's also true with requiring people, with excluding people from using the bus.  I think the example you read, Jacquie, may have been a fixed route system.  It may only push the person toward paratransit.  So there's really a higher dollar value to be gained by transit agencies really emphasizing making their fixed route system accessible.
 
Here are some other interesting points from the meeting I was at by FTA a couple of years ago that relates very well to this area of stop announcements.  These are some best practices in the area of stop announcements.  One is that it should be clear for drivers what to announce.  For example, sometimes drivers will do cross streets at some stops and not others.  Some may say stadium as opposed to the intersection of Broadway and Vine Street.  So there should be consistency in what the stop announcements are.
 
Another is how long the announcement gets to be.  Sometimes in a congested urban area, if a vehicle is coming into a central bus station, it would be very lengthy to announce every crossing route.
 
Another issue of consistency, but it's not about the list but more the operator, that is the driver of the vehicle, drivers can get creative with the announcements; and it may be more enjoyable or it may be making a joke.  I know that whenever I'm on an airplane, and sometimes you hear the flight attendant having a little colloquial or interesting way of presenting the safety briefing.  It always makes it more interesting, and you listen closer in those times.  But on the bus, it's not a good idea. Because making stop announcements in a way that's inconsistent can be annoying to some people, and it can be confusing to some people with disabilities who need those words to be consistent to provide a way to orient themselves to their location.
 
In smaller systems, the drivers where everyone knows everybody by name, and they know where everybody on board is going, sometimes the operators will not announce those stops.  Sometimes this can be a real problem because disabilities are not always visible, and individuals may still need the stop announcements.  It's not legal under the ADA to have a policy that if you know where everyone's going, you don't need to announce it.  Those announcements still need to be made.
 
Another is that in training, drivers sometimes think, oh, this person is not visually impaired, so I don't need to make announcements.  But stop announcements are helpful to everyone as an aspect of universal design.  And as I said a minute ago, not all disabilities are obvious. For all these reasons, it is really important to keep doing the stop announcements.
 
A few other points.  One transit agency at this meeting pointed out that they don't announce every stop in deference to people who are noise sensitive.  And that might be okay if the local community concurs.  It's important to do stops often enough that people can be oriented to their location.
 
Another thing from this agency that I would call a best practice is that they had people with sensitive hearing and also a lower level of hearing select which voice should be used to record their stop announcements.  That is a good idea.  One transit agency reported that they involved retired drivers, seasoned drivers, and new drivers in establishing their stop announcement list.  This general manager said that they asked these folks what we can do to get people to call out the stops.  It's good to ask your operators for these kinds of hints involving them.  They know a lot of input that could be helpful and change policy.  So don't ignore your bus operator.
 
One problem emerged that is very valid.  Although, it's not entirely clear what to do about it, but I think it's valid for people to think about it.  Some bus operators saw making stop announcements as breaking down a protective barrier between drivers and passengers that drivers -- operators wanted to maintain.  And they said they needed to consider this.  It broke down the protections that the driver has because they had had incidents where passengers would do all kinds of things -- whack the drivers and then run out of the bus.  A lot of times people talk about the drivers are rude, but a lot of times the drivers can be victims, probably more often.  So we need to find ways to require that operators make stop announcements but be able to maintain the professional conditions that they require to be able to do their job.
 
One system encouraged riders to call in compliments as well as complaints.  And it's good to advocate riders to call in compliments as well as complaints.
 
We heard at this meeting a number of stories about unions.  Sometimes unions have been obstacles in attaining a good rate of stop announcements.  Now, I am not the kind of person that is normally known to put down unions.  I tend to be a union supporter.  But it is true that, for example, that in the big city that gave the scenario said that union functionaries who are trying to win elections would tell the drivers that the stop announcement requirement will be going away, which is certainly not the truth.  And yet other transit agency people reported that their unions have been terrific.  One talked about how he -- this is one of the top guys in the transit agency -- meets with his union every month.  So the issue of unions plays a role in the stop announcement system, and it is very helpful to get them on board.
 
Michael Winter, who worked at the OT for a long time and was the director of the Office of Civil Rights of the Federal Transit Administration, gave his experience at AC transit, which is a California transit agency where he lived before he went to DC.  And he told a wonderful story that when he was first elected, he met with the union and found out that the issue was that they had multiplicity of lists of stops, side steps of instructions, and there was no one to maintain this. So he said as a member of this board, he got that problem fixed.  Then the union supported him in the next election, though they had been opposed to him before, perhaps thinking that he would be too strict about disability access.
 
Michael pointed out that a good advice for advocates and perhaps for transit agencies, too, is to deal with it on a political leadership issue.  He also said that he had run his campaign for AC Transit Board, and it was observed at that meeting that there was an irony that the issue that Michael had run on was also the union's issue, though they had opposed him.  This was a good story of how over time the union came to be more supportive of access because somebody saw to it that the issue of the problem that they had was addressed.
 
One other point is that this was a story that was told from a particular city that I had never heard anything like this before.  This was when the transit agency was working with trying to really raise their compliance on stop announcements, and they were being probably relatively strict on discipline with the operators.  What happened is that there were two drivers who themselves had speech -- the words she used was speech impediments.  So what happened is that they requested and received from the transit agency a tape recording of their stops.  And they operated the tape recorder in order to make the stop announcements because they did not want to lose their jobs.  They were monitored doing it this way, and the announcements were made just fine.  It was a creative way to accommodate an employee with possibly a disability and make it work for everybody.
 
I could go on to another area, but do you have questions, Jacquie?
 
Jacquie:  Yes, we do have several.  This person wonders how does a person who is deaf and blind know when their stop is coming up?
 
Marilyn:  That's a good question, and I don't know the answer. I don't know if the ADA can address that question because neither visual nor audio supplements would help that person.
 
It's true that any requested stop must be announced, but the ADA does not require operators to go beyond announcements.  The announcements have to work, have to be audible, and all those things.  But they don't have to do additional media, for example, come to communicate with that individual.
 
Actually, let me reconsider just slightly to think about a point that just occurred to me.  The fact that drivers must announce any requested stop -- but do they need to go and tell the individual?  That's something I would want to think about a little bit more.  Generally speaking, they need to make the announcement.
 
Jacquie:  I don't think they're going to be required to do that either.  This is from a transit company in Virginia.  Can a transit company make it mandatory for the wheelchair to be secured with tie-downs?
 
Marilyn:  Yes, absolutely.  Requiring securement is something a transit agency may do.  They may not however -- it does not go so far as to say that if for some reason your tie-downs that you have or your securement devices are tied down with a good lingo that a lot of people use for those.  If those will not accommodate a particular wheelchair, you can not, therefore, deny transit to that person.  You have to let them ride.
 
But no, assuming the tie-downs fit the wheelchair, you absolutely can require that the wheelchair be secured.
 
Jacquie:  Okay.  This is someone writing about a report that was on the CBS affiliate in Atlanta.  A county government in Norcross, Georgia told a woman that because of the lack of accessible sidewalk, she must take the bus or use paratransit to go to and from work and to and from the store.  To enforce this position, they have given her a ticket for driving her wheelchair without a valid driver's license.  Her wheelchair is a scooter.  The county attorney insists that they can prohibit her from using the wheelchair on the shoulder of the road because buses and paratransit are available.  Now, that even if she crosses the street in her scooter, she'll be ticketed and arrested for repeatedly driving her wheelchair without a valid license.
 
Marilyn:  I want to -- I think I have something on this.  If I can't find it quickly, I think I will just get back to that person.  This is not the first time that this has come up.  I want to just really quick check.
 
Well, I didn't find it right away.  I think that it may be legal for transit agencies to refuse to allow pedestrians onto particular roadways. Of course, they cannot disallow a person with a disability if they allow others.  So for example, if individuals who walk or are nondisabled can be on that particular roadway, it would not be legal to disallow a person with a disability from doing it in whatever manner is customary for them to be a pedestrian.  But if all pedestrians are precluded, my first thought is it would be legitimate to allow that.
 
But Jacquie, I know you'll send me that, and I would like to look to see if I have anything further for that person.
 
Jacquie:  Okay.
 
Marilyn:  Actually, it just occurred to me that I have one other place where I can look.  I will do that and come back to it if I can find it.  But you can go ahead. 

Jacquie:  All right.  This is from Massachusetts.  It starts off by saying excellent Webcast.  It says does the ADA or its regs speak to finding bus stops, especially those in the middle of blocks?  This is especially problematic for blind folks when traveling in an unfamiliar area.
 
Marilyn:  I would say that there isn't anything specifically requiring features that will make them more findable other than the ADA does have some signage requirements.  But I don't think it's as useful as the way the person painted this situation.
 
However, there is a related thing that I want to mention in connection with the question, which is that while we don't want to push paratransit instead of use of the fixed route system, the ADA does mandate that paratransit should be available to people who can't use the fixed route system.
 
Part of using the fixed route system for an individual who is blind means finding the bus stops.  And there are agencies who have undertaken measures which, to me, are best practices on this. For example, in Eugene, Oregon, the bus stop poles are square, and the city doesn't allow any other pole to be square.  So if a visually impaired individual knows the general area of where the bus stop is and can get there and check around, the square pole allows them to ascertain for sure exactly where the bus stop is.
 
Jacquie:  That's a great idea.
 
Marilyn:  It's a great idea.  In our trainings we point out that if a measure like that is not there for the person to locate the bus stops, this could trigger paratransit ineligibility.  If it does, that could hopefully provide an incentive to an transit agency to provide a more detectable set of bus stops.  We're going to talk more about bus stops today, because bus stops are very important.
 
Jacquie:  Okay.  This is another one that's similar to what you just said.  Wheelchair lifts are not large enough to carry a person in a wheelchair and the person's service dog.  We keep finding transportation systems that refuse to board people with service dogs, if the dog cannot ride on the lift with the person needing to get on the bus first or getting off of the bus after the person.  How can people who use wheelchairs and who have service dogs use the fixed route system with this issue if using a service animal or qualifying conditions for paratransit rather than the fixed route system?
 
Marilyn:  Well, certainly, if there are policies that prohibit a service animal -- let's start at the beginning.  Service animals have to be accommodated.  So the transit agency has to find a way to do it. If the service animal is for a person who's using a wheelchair -- and it can't enter the vehicle by the way, the wheelchair user has to enter it some other way.  If it can't enter it before or after, then you're excluding the service animal, and that's a violation of the ADA.  It is true that if the person with a disability can't use the fixed route system, it triggers paratransit eligibility for them.  But in this case, the exclusion is itself an ADA violation.  The most important thing to everybody should really be making sure that the transit agency permits service animals.  I know there has been some controversies over when do they enter, before or after, which door, does the driver have to do it? Those are things that have to be worked out.  Because the transit agency is not -- it's not legal for them to refuse the service animal.
 
Jacquie:  Just one last one for right now.  Are drivers required to know where a stop on a bus route is located?  Sometimes drivers on new routes are unsure and don't feel comfortable calling in to dispatch for information.
 
Marilyn:  Well, certainly, if a driver is knew, we want to work to try to work with them and be understanding.  But at the same time, it is part of the ADA for drivers to announce -- I presume this is related to stop announcements -- that the drivers announce any requested stop.  If they don't know where Elm Street Way -- which is an adjunct to Elm Street, which is a small little stop -- if they don't know where that is, they should find out.  If they have the technology to call in, they should do it.  Because otherwise, not announcing, if that stop is requested and it's not announced, that's a violation of the ADA.  If they can't get the information, that's one thing; and they don't know.  It's a real problem for the person.  I might not file a lawsuit the first time a new driver has a problem -- maybe give him one other chance.  We don't want to be unreasonable.  But at the same time, any driver should do whatever he or she can to get the information to call it out because this is certainly an ADA requirement.
 
Jacquie:  Okay.  Now, I have a couple of more questions that came in.  Do buss finders at bus stops have to have tosser audio?
 
Marilyn:  Actually, I'm going to go into the next requirement because that's really an external announcement question, Jacquie.  Does it look like that to you?
 
Jacquie:  Yeah.
 
Marilyn:  You think so.  Okay.  Let me give the general rule on that, and then why don't we look back at that question.
 
Where vehicles -- this provision is often given right with stop announcements.  It's another kind of an announcement, where vehicles for more than one route serve the same spot, the transit agency must provide a means by which an individual with a visual impairment or other disability can identify the proper vehicle to enter or be identified to the operator as a person seeking a ride on a particular route.
 
Now, the ADA -- or the ADA regulation -- originally presented this requirement as either identifying the vehicle to the passenger or the passenger to the vehicle.  But really when you come right down to it, the only effective way to do this in our view and I think in the view of other very knowledgeable ADA experts, is this is the vehicle identifying the route number to the passenger.  It's bus to passenger.  It can either be the driver calling out the open front door to people waiting at the stop -- this is Route 61 or what have you -- or checking with remaining people at the stop.
 
Now, there's no need for the driver to do it -- for the operator to do it -- if no one is waiting.  But if someone is waiting, it should be done because you don't always know if a person needs it.  They may not appear to need it and still needs it.  This has a twofold purpose.  It provides an alternative format for destination signs that somebody may not be able to read, and it also helps prevent pass byes as a side benefit.
 
There was something interesting that was stated this morning on the FTA Project Action distance learning session that I listened that I want to bring in on the issue of these external announcements -- some points they made I found very interesting.  One is that if multiple buses arrive at a stop at the same time, then probably each one must pull up to the stop and make the external announcements.  I was very pleased to hear FTA say that, because this is not necessarily something that we see happening.
 
Furthermore, he said that we cannot just assume that having enunciators or putting the external announcement  provision and driver training will ensure compliance.  Automatic enunciators sometimes fail, and just like the other kind of stop announcements, drivers have to fill in the gaps.
 
So do you think this responds to that question?
 
Jacquie:  Yes.
 
Marilyn:  Anything else before we go on?
 
Jacquie:  No, not really.  The person who sent in the question about the woman in Georgia that was getting ticketed for using her wheelchair on the shoulder of the road, it just sent a follow-up to say that pedestrians are allowed to walk on the shoulder of that road.  Only wheelchair users are not allowed.
 
Marilyn:  Oh, in that case, to me this would be a violation of, not something specific in fact ADA transportation regulation, but definitely something in the ADA in general.  The ADA has general nondiscrimination provisions, and this would be a violation of the part of the ADA that applies to state and local governments that are making this ruling.
 
But if pedestrians can't go -- now, it's true you might have lack of accessibility to certain pedestrian facilities.  We have some requirements in this area.  We don't have as complete requirements as we'd like in terms of public rights of way -- specific technical standards which the Access Board is working on -- the U.S. Access Board.
 
But certainly, if the person can go there, but they disallow her, I think that's a violation of the ADA.
 
Jacquie:  Right.  Okay.  That's all I have for now.
 
Marilyn:  Good.  Okay.  Let's go to the service animals area. If you go back to the material's list, there are a couple of specific documents.  The first one is Number 7 -- commonly asked questions about service animals in places of business.  And the other is this ADA business brief service animals.  If you get those up, I will hit some of the high points.
 
First, in the commonly asked questions document -- and by the way, this is about places of business, but the same rules apply to transportation.
 
Question 2, what is a service animal?  A service animal is any guide dog, signal dog, or any other animal individually trained to provide assistance to someone with a disability, regardless of whether they've been licensed or certified by anyone.
 
Then if you go to Question 3 -- I should say the answer to Question 3.  You may -- a transit agency or any other entity covered by the ADA -- may not require written documentation as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal.
 
And under Question 4, a service animal must be permitted to accompany the person to all areas of the facility or the vehicle where customers or riders are normally allowed to go.
 
Then under Question 6, you are violating the ADA if you refuse to admit a service animal on the basis of local health regulations or other state and local laws because the ADA provides greater protection for people with disabilities than local and state laws.  So it takes priority over local and state laws or regulations.
 
On to Question 8, this questioner said I operate a private taxi cab and don't want animals in my taxi.  They smell, shed hair, and sometimes have accidents.  Am I violating the ADA if I refuse to pick up someone with a service animal?  And the answer is yes.  Taxi cab companies may not refuse to provide services to individuals with disabilities.  This is true for any form of transit.  Private taxi cab companies are also prohibited from charging higher fares or fees for transporting people with disabilities and their service animals than they charge to other people for the same or equivalent service.
 
Down to Question 10.  What if a service animal barks or growls at other people or otherwise acts out of control?  You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others.  For example, any service animal that displays a vicious behavior toward any guest or customer may be excluded.  But you may not make assumptions about how a particular animal will behave based on your past experience with other animals.  Each animal must be considered individually.  And then although you may exclude any service animal that's out of control, you should give the person with a disability who uses the animal the option of continuing and taking transit without having the animal present.
 
Then last -- and this is perhaps addressing the most difficult area to figure out.  Can I exclude an animal that doesn't really seem dangerous but is disruptive?  The answer is there may be a few circumstances -- a very few -- when you're not required to accommodate a service animal, that is when doing so would result in a fundamental operation of the nature of the business.  Generally, this is not likely to occur in transportation or similar situations.  But when it does, you can exclude the person.  This talks about when a dog barks during a movie.  In trying to apply this to the transit area, I first thought, well, there are times when movies are shown on Amtrak.  But Amtrak has a lot of ambient sounds that I think would sort of cover a dog bark.  So it's really hard to think about when this would really be allowed.  But if an animal's behavior is so out of bounds that it results in a fundamental alteration to the nature of the transportation, then it would be legitimate to not take them.
 
But again, the previous question, if the animal's behavior poses a direct health to the health or safety of others, that is probably the only other time -- such as the animal displaying vicious behavior or being very disruptive of other riders. 

I wanted to mention one other point, and that is on that ADA business brief that is Number 8.  I don't love this point, but it is part of the ADA, and so we should give it.  If you look at that business brief, and it is on the second column.  It is actually the very first bulleted item. It provides something that wasn't in the original regulation, which is that business -- or in this case transit providers -- may ask if an animal is a service animal and what task the animal has been trained to perform.  We thought that this question really can go to the nature of the disability and, thus, what should be regarded as an illegal question. But the Department of Justice stated that you can't necessarily ask everything.  You can't get a complete lowdown on a person's disability. There's a lot of things the agency cannot ask, but they may ask if an animal is a service animal.  In other words if it's not -- if it's a pet -- they don't have to be accommodated.  They can also ask what task the animal has been trained to perform because that can help them ascertain is it a service animal.  However, they are not allowed to require special ID cards for the animal or to ask about the person's disability.  And that is mostly want I wanted to say about service animals.
 
I was also going to mention two other provisions, and then we can maybe take a couple of concluding questions if there are any.  This may not be in the outline, but certainly, it's required for the transit agency to make available adequate information concerning their transit service in a communications accessible manner through accessible formats and technology, whether it's calling in and having TDD service or whether it's providing acceptable schedules; if they provide written schedules then providing interpreters at hearings, it is important to provide auxiliary aids.
 
The other one I wanted to mention is that there are provisions against retaliation and harassment in the ADA, and that is very important.  So I just want to mention the ADA's provisions on this.  The ADA says that no individual or organization can discriminate against somebody because they have opposed an act or practice that is unlawful under the ADA or because some other person -- such as a person with a disability -- has made a charge of discrimination against them under the ADA or has testified or assisted someone.  Say an ILC has assisted somebody, then they cannot be retaliated against.  Or if the person has participated in any manner in an investigation or proceeding or hearing under the ADA, it's not legal to retaliate against them in any way, nor to coerce or threaten or intimidate or interfere with that person from enjoying their rights under the ADA.  You can't retaliate against anybody because they participated in any investigation or action to enforce the ADA nor threaten, intimidate or interfere with them if they're seeking to obtain or use the goods of really any entity covered by the ADA including transportation. There has been widespread anecdotal evidence of retaliation against people with disabilities who exercise their transportation rights.
 
At DREDF we used to frequently here of paratransit drivers or dispatchers who would provide poor service to individuals who've complained about paratransit problems.  We hear about drivers acting angry and threatening such individuals.  We've heard of drivers being beyond rude -- but really being intimidating and harassing to people because of their disability.
 
In fact, in the area where I live in San Francisco, there was an interesting feature on TV some weeks ago about a particular driver who was very abusive to riders with disabilities.  Certainly, you can't always take every anecdotal report on its face.  But where true, these incidents are violations of this part of the ADA.  And the gentleman a few years ago who used to be the head of the Office of Civil Rights of the Federal Transit Administration made the point at the presentation I was at to say that there is so much anecdotal evidence of it that some of it has got to be true, and there has to be some retaliation going on.  So we encourage transit agencies to be extremely sensitive to complaints about retaliation or harassment.
 
Jacquie can we squeeze things in, maybe one more?
 
Jacquie:  Well, the only question I have here at the end is actually not a question, but it will be maybe an interesting thing to end on.  This is from Iowa.  And it says regarding the individual in Georgia. This is interesting that this came up.  Last year in Iowa, an Iowan representative proposed a bill that would require people with disabilities using scooters or wheelchairs to obtain driver's licenses for using any part of the road -- for example, the shoulder -- for any reason, even if the reason was that there were no accessible sidewalks. And if people violated this, they would first be ticketed, but repeat offenses would have lead to the confiscation of the mobility device.  As I studied several different state policies, this is not all that uncommon.
 
Marilyn:  If it's not uncommon, I don't think it's enforced a lot because I think we would hear about it more.  This was a big issue a few years ago in Sandusky, Ohio.  Do you remember?  I think that was when there was a huge furor over the efforts of a -- I think a municipality, possibly with the county -- to restrict the transit of a person in a public right of way.
 
Again, I really do think that it's a violation for the ADA to make restrictions on people with disabilities and the public.  I mean the whole point of the public right of way is that it is public.  If you're going to make it a private right of way, that's one thing.  But even in a private place, you can't say that people with disabilities can't go if nondisabled people can.  Certainly, it's enforced, but possibly even if they're just on the books.
 
Arguably, laws and ordinances like this are violations of the ADA, certainly if they're enforced.  The important thing, though, is to stop them before they start because then you have a lot of trouble on your hands.
 
It reminds me a little bit of the provision in the Fair Housing Act where states and local municipalities -- it's illegal under the Fair Housing Act to make ordinances that restrict having -- except for small group homes for people with disabilities.  When the Fair Housing Act amendment was passed in 1988, at that time, there were a lot of ordinances that did this.  And anyone where enforcement was truly brought to bear was struck down by the courts because they were discriminatory. 

But you had to go to the trouble each time to do it.  It's best to just stop it before it starts.  These ordinances shouldn't be there, I don't think.  And they shouldn't be enforced if they are there.  Does that analysis make sense to you, Jacquie?
 
Jacquie:  Yes.  Absolutely.  I agree.
 
Well, thanks a lot Marilyn again for just a great Webcast.  I want our entire listeners to please feel free to share the archives of today's presentation with your colleagues.  They will be available tomorrow at ilru.org.  And please don't forget to complete the evaluation on the Webcast page.  We're really interested in receiving your feedback.
 
I want to remind our listeners about the National ADA Symposium, which is a three day conference on the Americans with Disabilities Act and related disabilities laws that has earned the reputation as the most comprehensive event available on the ADA.  And it will be held in St. Louis May 12th through 14th.
 
The DBTAC ADA centers are proud to announce that symposium attendees will have the unique opportunity to participate in a U.S. Access Board town meeting.  The Access Board holds biannual town meetings in cities throughout the United States to receive feedback and recommendation on accessibility issues.
 
This year the Access Board will hold its town meeting in conjunction with the National ADA Symposium, and the focus of this meeting will be airport access.  You can get more information at adasymposium.org.  Be sure to join us on Wednesday, April 2nd when Beth Sufian will join me for a presentation called insurance coverage issues, strategies, and solutions, where we'll discuss information on options for health coverage and government benefits, as well as info on COBRA, FMLA and related issues faced by parents of children with disabilities.  And then on April 30th for Part V of the transportation series with Marilyn Golden.
 
Thanks to the National Institute on Disability Rehabilitation and Research, NIDRR, our sponsor today.  The opinions and views expressed today are those of the presenter's and are no endorsement of the sponsoring agency should be inferred.
 
And finally, this Webcast would not be possible without the efforts of our Webcast team, Rob Dickehuth for his technical expertise and our amazing captioner.
 
Thanks again for joining us today.  Have a dazzling day