1 >>>MARIE: Good afternoon, everyone and welcome to the webcast on entertainment access, your rights as a person with a disability, have a pint at a pub, rock 'n' roll, break the bank at the casino, watch another see quell, a walk and other time wasters. I'm Maria Del Bosque. Before we get started I'd like to review the sponsors of this program and review a couple of details. Today's activity is a result of -- funded under NIDRR -- national institute of disability and research -- to make research available to all. Just a couple of technical things to go over before we get started. If anybody encounters any problem during the webcast, you can call in for technical assistance. People are standing by to answer all your questions. 713-520-0232. Click the button on your screen or e-mail to SWDBTAC at ILRU.org. Now I'd like to introduce our speaker 2 for today, Aaron McCullough. He's an attorney practicing discrimination law with a special focus on architectural disability. He's also a former specialist at the disability law research project. He produces materials, provided training on all aspects of the ADA and filled in technical support requests. He's in private practice focussing on litigation and accessibility compliance consultancy. He earned his law degree of the University of Houston law center in 2000 and became a member of the state bar of Texas in the spring of 2001. He entered law school after working as a social worker in plain view, Texas where he worked as an advocate for people with developmental disabilities. Previously he worked on Bernell mental health care center in Springfield, Missouri. Thank you for being here today. >>>AARON: Thanks, Maria. I'm here to talk about the Americans with Disabilities Act and entertainment 3 venues and the services that you can expect within those venues. First I want to thank the DBTAC for having me here and second I want to beg that any of the participants out there listening actually participate. If you don't this is going to be about a ten-minute webcast. And that's mainly because I'm not going to belabor the precise technical requirements in my portion of this interactive experience because that information has been developed in other webcasts, and I want to really cover this very global topic and follow your interests, so again, I want you to please send your questions in to the e-mail address that Maria mentioned earlier. Can you restate that for the audience? >>>MARIE: SWDBTAC at ILRU.org. >>>AARON: Thank you. I was asked to present this and it seemed odd for me to be asked to present a webcast on the Americans with Disabilities Act and accessibility and entertainment 4 because entertainment is something by its very nature that seems somewhat less vital, something that's not essential, something that's not really necessary. But then I kind of had to rethink that position when I started thinking about exactly what do people perceive as entertainment and how much law has actually been written add adjudicated that deal with entertainment accessibility. So I had to rethink that entertainment is not just a tangentially or incidentally important (indiscernible) civil rights laws like the Americans with Disabilities Act and while we litigated them many, many times, it was clearly an important part of the ADA and the ramp up of the civil rights to the ADA. And I think no more, you know, more important is this decision expressed than in the language of the supreme court decision in Williams V Toyota where the court was defining the ADA level of disability or disability as covered under the Americans with disabilities act 5 as something that "to be substantially limited an individual must have an impairment that restricts the individual from doing activities that are central importance to most people's daily lives." And I think it's that central importance that really brought this around to me. When I look at how most people live their lives, often it's to be entertained, to engage in recreation. They work their 40, 50, 60 hours a week. They rush home to participate in their child's or spouse's sporting events or their hobbies or whatever recreation. They look forward to the weekend and their vacation so that they can engage in those recreational activities more fully. I think it's hard, you know, for me now in retrospect to look back and not see how important recreation is in not only the actual life but certainly the quality of life for most anyone I know. And certainly this must be true or must be made true for people with disabilities who are impacted by the Americans with 6 Disabilities Act. So again, I want you to send in your questions about your experiences, your concerns about both the law but also particular aspects of service and physical access and venues of entertainment. What this webcast isn't -- this webcast, as I mentioned, is not going to be the most technically -- at least my part of it -- you know, detailed the section of the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines and every portion of it that might impact a recreational facility. We will be discussing those when they come up in questions and I'll talk about the American with disabilities act accessibility guidelines as that comes up in context. We're also going to discuss the new accessibility guidelines, what a lot of folks call the ADA/ABA AG accessibility guidelines and we'll get into that momentarily. But what this webcast isn't is again going to be a specific break 7 down of every aspect of entertainment and access in every court case because -- and every settlement because there are literally thousands of relevant court cases that I ran across and hundreds of department of justice settlements that impact, I would say, a recreational setting. So we'll talk about some of those when they become appropriate but I certainly can't dissect them all. I'm hoping if you have a specific question, again, to send that in. Now, whether your entertainment desires are like the ballet or symphony or more basic like what's known as a gentleman's club, adult club, sports oriented -- you know, from your local batting cages to a major league baseball park -- whether your entertainment desires mirror Hollywood, old classic movie palace or more modern movie stadium, the ADA still has impact on accessibility. So to thumbnail real quick what that is, the Americans with Disabilities Act does cover existing 8 facilities that host -- that are venues for entertainment. The Americans with Disabilities Act even covers historic facilities that act as venues for entertainment. The rule of thumb around the office when I worked for the DBTAC was that we always reminded people that there ain't no such thing as grand fathering under the Americans with Disabilities Act. All too often, when a facility that -- when a facility of any type that's open to the public is confronted with the request to be -- or a complaint -- to be more accessible they'll envoke this kind of building codes notion that we existed before the law so we are untouchable, we're thus grand fathered. And we must assure you that that's not the case. Even if you have a nationally, historically designated property or one that's been designated by the preservation office there may be things you're required to do under the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility. With this -- this isn't a 9 discussion of historic preservation. I think we have a webcast archived for that or one planned. There's no such thing as grand fathering under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Now, the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines are what people call the ADAG covers new construction and alterations to existing facilities so this is a set of strict guidelines that kind of mirror a building code. We don't like to say that but they were developed as design and construction guidelines to promote accessibility and compliance under the Americans with Disabilities Act. And that's the existing law of the land nationally and all privately held places that are open to the public with public accommodations. In addition it impacts new construction for facilities operated -- owned or operated by state or governmental facilities. So the current state of the law is the part of title three that we call the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines. 10 There's some of you champing at the bit telling me there's a new set of guidelines and that they're already enforceable, and that's both true and untrue. The ADA/ABA AG or Americans with Disabilities Act architectural barriers act accessibility guidelines -- it's a pretty long and nasty acronym. There are a number of agencies that control a vast majority of properties that have adopted these standards for new construction but the department of defense and housing and urban development have not. So essentially any federal facility being -- that's newly constructed or altered is going to have to meet these standards unless it's operated currently by the department of defense or housing and urban and development. Now, in the private sector, it's the department of justice in cooperation with the Department of Transportation or using the recommendations of the Department of Transportation that have the heavy lifting to do to make this new 11 set of standards enforceability in the private sector and with regard to state and local government entities. That's an entire additional webcast but I need to assure you that for the last -- I don't know -- seven years we've been saying maybe next spring, maybe next spring we'll hear something about enforcement. Last spring we did hear something about the potential enforcement date of the -- the new set of standards. And in fact the department of justice published in the federal register a notice for public comment -- for public comment these hearings were heard, the comments have been gathered and are published an the ADA.gov website, the department of justices -- U.S. government's ADA website -- ADA.gov. And again, we've had this public comment period, which is an advanced stage in rule making for the federal government. Nothing can happen with lightening speed with regards to making the law and we don't really want there to be hasty decisions. 12 But we would like some certitude and some consistency and right now we're stuck with federal agencies having one set of accessibility standards -- or two sets -- the private sector having another set of accessibility standards when we all strive for the consistency of maybe having one set. There's a lot of advantages of the ADA accessibility guidelines -- over the ADA accessibility guidelines and I think most of the commentators would agree but there's certainly some concerns to iron out. One of the key features of this new set of guidelines was a complete set -- a fairly complete set of recreational facility accessibility guidelines that covered everything from miniature golf, to golf courses, to pools, to spas. We provided a link to those guidelines from the access board's website on the webcast page under "resources." And these guidelines were published about five years ago. After many years of exploration and work with organizations 13 in industry groups relevant to these types of entertainment venues. Again it covers everything from the swimming pools, golf courses, other sports and access facilities and even addresses amusement park rides -- the type you might see at a six flags or bush gardens. Boating and fishing facilities. You can see it's a pretty broad range of recreational facilities. And fortunately these recreational guidelines have been -- are actually a part of this new set of accessibility guidelines called the ADA/ABA AG. Excuse me -- I'm going to -- I'm getting a little foggy here. And so they have that advantage over the ADA accessibility guideline that's currently enforceable because it gives us a set of regulatory requirements when it becomes enforceable that covers the venues that have never been specifically dealt with before. So again it's something I think we're looking forward to because the more specific of guidelines we have the easier it is for 14 industry to comply, the easier it is for people seeking enforcement through complaints and lawsuits to assert violations of the nondiscrimination provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Do we have any questions? >>>MARIE: Yes, we actually do have a few questions right now. If you want me to, I can go ahead and ask these. The first question says, can you give us a quick update on beach access -- that is, what parts of a beach or up to a beach does the ADA address? Apart from any new construction requirements how should accessing facilities, like boating docks, be addressed. Actually that's two questions. >>>AARON: Well, like -- and again, I think I covered this. But I'll be more specific. There are a lot of solutions to promote (indiscernible). It's part of a recreation and private facility. The vast majority of beach is not private, 15 it's public access, which is a little outside of the scope but I'm going to address this. We don't have enforceable law that tells us to do anything more than to generally make these venues of recreation accessible. When it comes to beach access, industry and -- as well as accessibility organizations have been studying this for years and have come up with a myriad of solutions of both permanent -- more permanent, more temporary, lower cost, higher cost. Again, that's still in the works with regards to beach access. Essentially if you have a structure that approaches the beach and it's part of the experience of the beach, that's part of the reason that someone is coming to this venue, then you need to provide access to the functional part of the beach. After that, you know, it really becomes an engineering issue. There are -- you know, there are really some beach -- I guess beach material. There's literally sand that's much more accessible, wet 16 or dry, than other sand. And it will depend on the location, the composition of the type of sand, et cetera, and these engineering issues. I think one of the reasons we're unlikely any time soon to have a strict of requirements that takes somebody from a ramp that approaches the beach all the way on to the beach and approaching the water because there are, to be honest, engineering barriers. But a number of very positive and a variety of cost-level solutions have been provided by such groups as the national center on accessibility and I think -- I would encourage someone to look at their work and I believe their website is NCA on line.org, but again it's the national center on accessibility at Indiana university who have outdoor laboratories settings with beach front who have worked in cooperation with a number of other groups and I think have a pragmatic approach with (indiscernible) exploring cost options. I don't have an answer to the first 17 question but to say there are good people working on it. And beach access should be considered and left up to the individual. Some solutions have been -- renting large wheel beach chairs to people who utilize wheelchairs for their mobility. Other solutions have been impacting the way that -- to be honest, sand settles on a beach and when you consider most beaches in this country are not completely natural -- a lot of them are dredged, added to -- it's not necessarily unusual that you might want to improve the way that that -- you know, at least a portion of that beach is compacted and configured from adding additional types of sediment or frames, you know, to allow a more accessibility route to exist, at least temporarily. Again, those are some of the options that have been explored by the national center on accessibility and other organizations. With regards to boating access, again, you know, you -- new construction 18 needs to follow the existing accessibility guidelines. The accessibility guidelines that are coming, the ADA/ABA AG guidelines that include the recreational facility guidelines from the access board does have boating facilities as a component and they've dealt more specifically with some of those realities about actually dealing with accessible routes onto a floating platforms, onto peers in a way that have not been dealt with under the current enforceable law. If I were building a new boating facility, if it were me understanding that I needed to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines I would look at these new guidelines that will very likely soon become enforceable law in both the design and construction of my facility and I would consider if I had, you know, an existing facility how I could promote as much accessibility as possible being informed by that same set of analogous recommended guidelines. 19 Any additional questions, Maria? >>>MARIE: Yes. This is the third question -- does my local school tell me that they have to -- do not have to modify or make their playground accessible for my third grader who uses a wheelchair. How should this be addressed? >>>AARON: First question, I will say, is more appropriate for another webcast. The second question is this is a programmer service of a public school probably. If it's not it's a private school and still -- the private school still has obligation under title three of the Americans with disabilities act. The school has some obligation to provide accessibility. If it's the public school they have the obligation inherent under title three entities, state and local entities, including individual schools. We have a set of children's play area guidelines that are again part of this new set of proposed standards but not under the current enforceable law. That being 20 said, any number of, let's say recreational facilities, the private recreational facilities, such as those for-play areas, those areas part of fast food restaurants -- I won't name the one but you know which one I'm talking about -- as well as schools have basically said since we don't have a set of strictly enforceable guidelines as to what we have to do with regards to play areas for children we do not have to make them accessible, which is of course nonsense. But I understand their dilemma. If we don't have a set of currently enforceable laws, what do I have to do? And the answer absent this new set of laws coming down the pipeline is you try to do something. Digging in your heels and refusing to do nothing is a great way to win a complaint by that mother to the appropriate federal agency, which, you know, I never discourage someone from enforcing their rights. But again, we're talking about altering the existing playground. 21 They have some obligation to promote some program -- the playground is a program or service to the public school. I'm assuming it's a public school. I'd encourage the mother to dig in and to be tenacious and to help the school understand what their obligation is. Any other questions? >>>MARIE: Yes. This question is probably a little more appropriate for your -- the webcast today. Says "I use a wheelchair and frequently get frustrated when I try to order baseball tickets for my family. The box office tries to limit me to two tickets. I'd like to sit with my entire family. Sometimes I get them to sell me four tickets together but more often than not, we can't all sit together. I end up sitting with my kids and my husband sits in another location with the other child. Is this legal under the ADA?" >>>AARON: Without knowing what facility you're talking about I'm probably still going to say it's probably 22 legal. The accessible sporting arena -- the large arena, sports or cultural -- let me put it this way. This is what I wanted to get to at the very end because this is the big sand pit with regards to accessibility and entertainment venues. Accessible stadiums are few and far between. When you think about the very nature of a stadium design, there are -- there is probably no way to create a truly equal experience for people who require mobility aids, you know, for their mobility in any traditional stadium design. And I will give that to the architects and the engineers who have tried and promoted the best accessibility that they can. Nevertheless, stadiums have to have accessible seating and have to allow companion seating and they have to develop a policy with regards to how to dole out these seats, how long to hold them in reservation and in no way are they required to hold all their accessible seating available and they certainly can 23 sell those seats to people without disabilities that impact their ambulation, so you can kind of see what I'm getting at. This is very -- it's a very complicated set of architectural and policy issues that we draw our best understanding from the lawsuits that have followed the passage of the ADA. The department of justice has sued and settled with every major theatre group with regards to accessible seating within stadium-setting theaters. They have sued any number of large, newer sporting arenas of both public and private. They have -- any number of these cases are still under litigation. So I guess my question is this: You know, has this parent asked the -- to see a written policy from this arena as to why they're denying them more than one companion seating. And I think you might find that asking for that written statement might clarify the issue. And again, the requirement for accessible stadium -- you know, either sporting or 24 those for movies or cultural arts -- the difficulty all comes with regard to seating. Wheelchair seating is required and in the large arena at least one part of the seating must be wheelchair seating locations of some type. You know, you have the same general requirements that the wheelchair sitting beyond open and level space on accessible route, same stable, slip resistance requirement of, you know, any other accessible route concern accessible seating must be part of a scheme or a plan so that, you know, people who are using accessible seating have a chance to sit with friends and families so they're not isolated from other spectators which make up a huge part of the experience and they're not isolated from their friends and family. The law requires that a companion seat be provided next to each wheelchair seating location and this creates one of the biggest controversies. Depending on how arenas have -- or other 25 entertainment venues of this type -- have configured their seating, they have a permanently installed seat next to a space that's appropriate for somebody using a wheelchair next to a permanently installed seat, next to a wheelchair space, et cetera. This provides the idea that there's one companion seat next to the wheelchair space. The ADA is kind of (indiscernible) on this issue. The accessibility guideline doesn't care about your ticketing policy. It's only dealing with design and construction requirements. To be honest, accessible seating can be bereft if permanently installed seat. I saw all over the bush stadium in saint Louis -- we have a picture on the page tied to the webcast -- where the accessible seating was disbursed throughout any number of price levels, was on accessible routes and all the companion seating was provided via folding chairs. Folding chairs (indiscernible) in an outdoor 26 arena have some concerns with regards to some, you know, safety. But that's the balance that it appears that it demands and that (indiscernible) has taken to promote as much accessibility and to allow again as much flexibility and accessibility accessible seating as possible. I think that's a good solution. Other solutions have included fold out permanently installed seating that would be allowed to be modified on the fly by an attendant or even a spectator who had been schooled on how to move that piece of equipment or that permanently-installed fold -- fold up that permanently-installed seating. But again, that's not specifically required. Again, you can't have the removal of folding seats and whatever your solution is, either that way -- whether you use the foldable removable seats -- I guess the fold-up or removable seats, whether you use a complete, you know, flat and accessible surface with folding chairs brought out by attendants, 27 again understand you could have a ticketing policy along with this. While in the middle of this -- I'm sure we have other questions coming -- I'll talk about accessible stadium seating. Another issue that comes up, whenever there's more than 300 seats provided you have to have this disbursed seating that I'm talking about, provided in more than one location. This creates a great deal of controversy and has driven a number of lawsuits against stadium movie style theaters constructed in the '90s and the litigation agreements are still in the works. As you can imagine, there was kind of a renaissance in the '90s of movie theaters changing from smaller or single venues to multiplexes and to draw people back into movie theatres having large screens with -- you know, this arena-style seating to enhance the experience, well, any number of the designers didn't consider full accessibility and this seating requirement and has driven a number of 28 lawsuits. It's an engineering issue to -- you know, to get all the nose bleed cheap seats here at minute maid Houston to the more higher-end, spectator venues, you know, such as the luxury boxes, the -- you know, the -- behind the dug-out seats, et cetera -- it is very hard from an engineering perspective to plan disbursed seating but it's a challenge that needs to occur -- challenge that needs to be met, rather. And for any municipality or private organization planning to build a large stadium, I think you need to be informed by the amount of lawsuits that have followed this very issue and err on the side of caution and consideration for accessibility. You can (indiscernible) a policy that make sure the seats don't have to be empty whether or not they're sold to a person with a disability and I think that's cheaper than trying to retro fit a construction like a stadium. In addition all the wheelchair seating must be on the same route as any 29 facility open to the public -- access the parking, transportation, drop offs areas, connecting the seating to all public areas -- bathrooms, beer stands, hot dog stands. Line of sight becomes another issue with regards to stadium seating. Line of sight is a issue particularly for people who use wheelchairs in any arena seating where you can expect people to jump up and block your view, which is almost any arena setting except a movie, and even those. You can think of any rock 'n' roll show -- country music shows, other entertainment venues, sports -- basketball. These are the types of things that inspire people to celebrate and stand up. A significant amount of wheelchair accessible seating locations must provide a line of sight that allows those people who are going to be seated to see over most people who would stand in front of them. This presents another huge concern and is addressed in the accessibility guidelines. 30 Any other questions? >>>MARIE: We have several questions. >>>AARON: Good. >>>MARIE: Often standard seating rows are (indiscernible) for dog guide users. They can take advantage of accessible seating in sports arenas when used for concerts and sports events? >>>AARON: I would encourage anybody who uses a dog guide who sees this as a concern -- because you can imagine how tight any fairly luxury seating is and you have a dog trained to be there and you have sitting installed where the dog probably can't it underneath the seating, it presents a huge physical risk to the dog. So if you think that's going to be a concern, I would certainly make that request. I know a lot of the people I know use -- who have dog guides or animals -- assistance animals of any type will seek out those seats or an aisle seat and the 31 aisle seats are usually lit so people can see the animals. There's reflective strips that make them more visible. You can request that but I guarantee they'll have a policy that requires this seating for people with mobility impairment so if those are filled up -- people with wheelchairs and mobility aids and their companions, they're probably within their rights to deny that. I would try to work that out in advance and raise that concern that I have a vital and expensive companion with me and I don't wish to have this animal injured. Great question. >>>MARIE: Okay. And the next question is, what obligations do theaters providing live performances have to provide audio description or sign language interpreters for patrons with visual and hearing impairment? >>>AARON: That's an interesting question. Two separate issues. You brought up audio description. There's not a lot of requirement. The -- you 32 have an interesting, vague language in the Americans with Disabilities Act called equally effective communication. I'm going to get into that in a bit. Any place of assembly that has more than 56 seats is going to have an obligation to provide assistive listening devices so whether they're hearing impaired or deaf, there's some obligation that you provide an assistive listening device. That's an underlying concern and that's spelled out in the access -- the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines. Audio description is something else entirely. Audio description is one of the ways you can promote accessibility for somebody with a vision impairment but it's not specifically required in the performance of live events and so you're less relying on (indiscernible). The general provisions of the fact that most venues, private and public, open to the public have an obligation to provide equally effective communication. The problem 33 is the regulations don't tell you precisely what you have to do to promote equally effective communication. It is the most nebulous term under the Americans with Disabilities Act. It's the one that creates, you know, so much concern for the deaf community with regards to, you know, when and where ASL translators have to be provided. There's controversy with regards to movie and movie captioning and how that needs to be provided. Public accommodations -- those venues open to the public part of the entertainment establishment have an obligation to communicate effectively to the public with disability. They need to be able to tend to people with disabilities but under no way are they required to provide the specific requested accommodation and that's the rub, that's where many people with specific disabilities are going to be left out because the law doesn't specifically require that the only way they're going to be equally communicated with. 34 So that's -- yeah. That's one of the (indiscernible) answers I can give right now. >>>MARIE: Okay. I think you kind of answered this next question but I'm going to go ahead and ask it. It says I notice that one of my local movie theaters provides hearing assistant headphone devices while another movie house I went to does not have this available. Are they required to have these devices? >>>AARON: If they have more than 56 seats they're required to have some assistive listening device. And the amount of devices that they have to have, you know, are spelled out in the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines. I think the problem is that you often have in movie theaters -- you have people running in the movie theaters during most business hours that are generally 18 or under. Any number of these listening devices 35 are fairly expensive. While usually simple to operate they have some level of sophistication and usually require some level of training. My guess is that there are people who are part of your public -- you know, interface, part of the customer service interface of the movie theater that just are unaware a assistive listening device is and what it is and why they have to provide it. I would, you know -- I'm not going to say I doubt that the theater has it but I'm going to bet that they do. The other issue is what do you do if all the assistive listening device have been disbursed to people who need them. And all the devices that they're required to have. Well, they've met their minimal legal obligation and you're out of luck. But what I would encourage you to do is to, you know, call in advance before you're planning to go, address the concern with the management, and we've got to -- a resource of assistive listening device on the advertising web page on the site for 36 this entertainment -- for this entertainment webcast, and I would encourage anybody who had that concern to make that available to the venue that they're having an issue with. And it spells out the obligations and the obligation as well as the technical guidelines for people with hearing loss in those venues. Next question. >>>MARIE: It's actually kind of similar to the last one I asked but the end is different. It says how obligations to movie theaters have -- what obligations do movie theaters have for providing audio description and rear window captioning for persons with visual and hearing impairment? Are there any changes planned for the future? >>>AARON: Let's see. It's a lot of questions. The questions do fall back into that issue. There's no specific requirement that these avenues towards equally effective communication be 37 effectively chosen. Captioning is something increasingly being offered in movie theaters, particularly the new venues are going back to a wrap around of their large screens. They have area where they can project captioning. Increasingly movie theaters are relying on digital technology and not film technology which is making captioning more available where they have the digital technology. But so far under the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines they're not required to specifically provide that. I think it's important that we show them that it is important that they pro -- when they provide that by attending. I've never known -- when it's done below or above the screen I've never seen anybody object to that whether they had a hearing disability or not. I think it enhances the experience for anybody and doesn't reduce attendance when they market it as a captioned show. With regards to rear window, rear 38 window is a very expensive and controversial system for providing captioning in a variety of settings, and has its proponents most certainly among the hearing impaired community but definitely has distractors who claim it's very distracting to the people around that person who's using that system. And again, I don't have a horse in this race. I want to do whatever it takes to affordably and effectively provide effective communication for people with disabilities. So I'm going to let other people fight that one out but there's no specific requirement under the federal law that you make that specific accommodation. Any number of facilities have experimented with that. We have in Houston a number of cultural arts centers, one I believe installed this system. I believe there's a movie theater in the Austin area with the assistance of various community groups of people with disabilities supported the cinema in raising the money to install a 39 similar system, and it's met with mixed enthusiasm, as I understand. Audio description is a great way to provide and enhance live events and movies for people with limited or no vision. I have some friends who do it as an enjoyable thing to provide this service as an audio describer but, again, it's not something that's going to be specifically required under the law because again you're left with -- outside what you have to do with regards to the facility which you have to provide this kind of assistive listening device if you have this many seats, the law is fairly silent until you get to the requirement that you provide equally effective communication. I think we've beat that dog to death. It's the best intentioned part of the law, given how complexed the issues are for people with vision disabilities but it's not the most effective part of the law. Next question. >>>MARIE: Okay. The next question is -- I have a question about 40 movie theaters. As far as wheelchair accessible seats does the first come/first serve rule apply? How is it -- I'm sorry. That is, does it apply if I'm in a wheelchair and there are limited accessible seats for myself and my family to sit when there are people sitting in the seats and don't need wheelchair accessible seats is management required to ask them to move for me? >>>AARON: Interesting question. Is management required? Not specifically under the law. The law doesn't micro manage every incident like that but I think if it created a consistent impact of discrimination then you could argue they need to have a policy. If it happens regularly enough I would raise the point with management and ask they have a policy. But generally it's first come/first serve and most movie theaters don't book for specific seating. I've seen that become a problem rarely but have seen that become a problem 41 myself as a big movie fan. So again I'm going to argue that there's a general requirement that, you know, these be made accessible to you, that you be shown a preference but they can have a policy and if everybody's rushing to watch the same movie and, you know, they can sell those seats and people can sit in them. That's what I've seen the issue is. Let's say the next summer block buster everyone wants to see on the first day and they'll sell to the first person who comes in. However, in most newer theaters it's an absence of seats on the accessible rows so there would be a problem with companion seats not being available but usually there will be accessible seating so you should explore, again, what the management's policy is. Under those circumstances would they bring out folding chairs? Would that be acceptable? I don't know. Would they ask a usher to ask some rude ruffians to move? I don't know. I would check on their policies. I would 42 argue this -- if you have the seating there, I want to know what your policy is and at least in a reasonable manner I should be able to access that. Those accessible features. And that's about as much of a reach as I think you can make under the law. We've got another question? >>>MARIE: Yes, we do. Next question is what obligation are there for facilities to provide sited guide assistance for persons who are blind to find seating? What requirements for timeliness of assistance? >>>AARON: There's no requirement whatsoever. I'm joking. There's no requirement under the law to provide that kind of personal assistance. And again, they -- it's -- to be honest, that's kind of a consistent issue across the ADA. That would be probably considered a personal assistance services, the kind of services you would need even in private life. Outside of accessing a public venue -- now I'm 43 going to argue that you can ask for it anywhere, particularly if you ask for it in advance. In most cultural settings, cultural entertainment issues they'll have ushers who are assigned those tasks, and I would raise this as a concern. In terms of timeliness, it's reasonableness. You know, how many people were attending, when did you arrive, how many others were being assisted? You know, if it's Houston grand opera, there's going to be a hundred 90 year old ladies being assisted to their seats. I'm not exaggerating at all. And those people who are assigned the task of assisting people, you know, who have a disability into their seats, on those opening nights of the Houston grand opera, for example, you're going to be waiting a long time and the timeliness is going to be reasonable. When can they get to you? So I don't have a great answer for you but just to encourage you to work with management and find out their policies and let them know your 44 concerns and to be reasonable. And ask if there's a way you can do some (indiscernible). Explore the facility in advance if it's going to be a place you regularly visit. If it's an incidental visit I would give as much notice as possible but they're not actually required to assist you to your seat under the ADA. Next question. >>>MARIE: What requirements are there for museums to provide assistance in experiencing exhibits of the museum for people with visual impairments? >>>AARON: They have an obligation to promote equally effective communication. Any number of museums are good at providing alternative experiences such as blue tooth enabled or audio taped enabled descriptions. Often if you schedule -- (indiscernible) museums have highly skilled, sometimes paid, most often volunteers who can help enhance the experience for anybody but particularly 45 somebody with a visual disability. But again, their obligations are that, you know, controls be within reach ranges, that they have appropriate signage, that -- under permanently installed rooms that that signage also contain braille, but exhibits aren't permanently installed rooms so you're left with the equally effective communication argument, which I do encourage you to make. However most museums to be honest are at least mixed public and private money, so their obligation is to provide program accessibility so you have something of a stronger stint to go -- to approach your set of rights but I would ask what their policy is. Almost any larger facility is going, again, to have at least at certain times somebody to assist you with that. Any number of parts of the Smithsonian museum systems will have a number of solutions. I've seen other cultural facilities that have the new blue tooth enabled technology where someone takes in an 46 ear piece and if they approach an exhibit they only get the audio signal from that exhibit, allowing a certain amount of interactivity that the older cassettes or hard drive audio description systems didn't provide. But again, those aren't specifically required. I've even seen cultural settings where they've asked the artist to choose either -- let's say -- and this was a museum gallery setting. And they asked the artist to provide a 3D interpretation of what is largely a 2D object themselves or to choose an artist to do so and they did this as a mixed event. It was profiling an artist in 2 and 3D and (indiscernible) artists that they loved and supported. It was an interesting way to enhance an aesthetic experience for everybody but to provide more opportunities for people with visual impairments but not necessarily required under the law. Next question. >>>MARIE: The last question that I have is, if the only accessible seating 47 available in a venue for a dog guide user is more expensive than seating in another part of the theater, is the dog guide user required to pay the price for the more expensive seating. >>>AARON: Assuming that's the case, if there's no other -- that there is no other accessible seating there's probably an argument that the management of the venue would need to reduce it to a reasonable price. But, you know, why is it -- why are no other seats accessible, would be my question. So it sounds like a reasonable argument and I went in and wanted to buy a mid price ticket and now you're giving me the high end but if somebody's wanting to buy the $5 seats and they're claiming the 10 and 20 and 30 are inaccessible and I've got to get in the $200 seats, the management will probably dig in and refuse and make the claim that it's unreasonable. I would try to explore with the facility management or the ticketing office, you know, where there 48 might be alternative accessible seating, and if not, then I would certainly make the pitch that I came in here to buy a regularly-priced ticket. I did not come in here to by the only accessible ticket, which is more expensive, so we need to reach a compromise. And that would be the argument I would make to that questioner -- or for that questioner. >>>MARIE: Okay. We actually did get another question in. >>>AARON: Good. Send them in, folks. >>>MARIE: This one says, my city has a park that includes separate swimming pools and (indiscernible). Do city officials have to install lifts or ramps into the pools? >>>AARON: We are talking about public facilities. This is a parks and recreation issue. And I think again that's been dealt with in other webcasts or maybe dealt with in an upcoming. But if you're talking -- you said your city. So they have these facilities. They're 49 required to make their programs accessible and usable -- accessible to and usable by people with disabilities. They've got to find some way to make that. That doesn't mean they have to make every existing facility accessible. That means they have to provide something (indiscernible) with access. I can't answer specifically except they probably need to assess city wide how accessible their swimming facilities are and what they're providing for the people with disabilities in those settings and what they need to do. There's plenty of options -- incredibly and expensive options to almost ridiculously inexpensive options to promoting accessibility. There's some -- like backyard affordable solutions that provide for independent access that are fairly incredible. And I'm thinking of water hose powered lifts that are enormously powerful and the person can, you know, utilize themselves and can be installed and deinstalled in 50 minutes to, you know, more complex solutions. And so it would behoove this person to, you know -- this caller to address this with the city and be reluctant to let the city back out as they often to. The regular governmental reaction is -- not unreasonable always -- is we haven't budgeted for that. That's okay this year, but when we're talking about a solution that may run into the hundreds of dollars, not the thousands of dollars, then it's something they need to consider fairly quickly. Do we have any other questions? >>>MARIE: No, that's all for now. >>>AARON: I got some more lecture. How about that? As long as my voice holds out. The title of this presentation was your right to.... Okay. Well, we haven't talked about -- we haven't talked much about bars, clubs, and casinos. We've made reference that even adult entertainment establishments -- gentlemen's clubs have been subject to title three of the 51 Americans with Disabilities Act and have been subject to department of justice investigations and settlements. I have a friend who litigates in title three in the state of Texas and has pursued some of Texas' more famous adult entertainment establishments because they didn't provide accessibility in new construction to all aspects of their facility, even the champagne room. If it's generally open to the public you need to promote accessibility to all leveling accessible to the public to the extent the person is eligible to participate -- if they bought the tickets and they're of age, they can get in. Another issue that's come up with bars and clubs are people with disabilities who have been denied access to their favorite drink. I'm not encouraging people to drink. I've been known to enjoy a pint of lone star beer myself. And you may ask how important this is but this is about someone's choice and how they want to access their lives and recreate. There have 52 been a number of lawsuits -- I haven't seen the one that went to court but that settled that dealt with this very issue. On one hand you have an increasingly demanding private sector wanting to more heavily regulate open container venues, bars, clubs, taverns, pubs. Mothers against drunk driver has been effective in changing policies but also dram shop laws which deal with the behavior of the people who operate liquor establishments. And create penalties for owners and managers and servers when you have people who are intoxicated. So increasingly you have this kind of tension between a facility that wants to sell you as much poison as possible and get you as drunk as they can and the reality of it that if you get in your car and you run someone over and hurt them or kill them, then they or their estate will be suing you or your business. Increasingly state agencies that regulate alcohol beverage serving businesses are beginning to enforce the 53 laws. You have police officers who will write a ticket to a bar that overserves somebody. So you have bar owners and bartenders who maybe are being -- who aren't being diligent in protecting their own interests. At the same time you have people with disabilities being denied service. I ask you this question -- can you imagine the criteria a bartender gets with deciding a person is drunk. They have impaired speech or ability to walk? Can you think of a number of conditions that might impair your speech or ability to walk? You can imagine a lot of less unsophisticated bartenders unfamiliar with this disability denying the patron with a disability to have a drink or another drink when they are in fact no more or less intoxicated than anybody else around. And the law will argue that you can't create a policy or enforce a policy that's going to deny someone access generally to a person in the goods offered there and that does include intoxicants. That has become 54 an issue. If it is an issue with you I encourage -- I think the shortest route to getting the beer is to make them aware that this isn't me intoxicated; this is me with my disability. If this is a place that you want to go. Casinos. We provided a link to an interesting resource about accessible travel and review of some Vegas casinos. I'll also talk about some more resources that I've thought of since we set these up. In many, many cases, casinos have some huge concerns with disability. A lot of the older casinos are older casinos. They are densely stacked -- I'm thinking of the oldest standing casino on the strip -- the Tropicana, the strip in Las Vegas. It's densely packed, narrow aisles with large, unfixed seating between them with slot machines that are much higher than more modern slot machines because they provide large, comfortable padded stools in any number or parts of the casino. There are probably more 55 accessibility concerns with the older casinos than with the newer. Other issues may exist too because we have only two places in the United States -- we had only two places in the United States -- Atlantic City and in Nevada. In this century we've had a rise in casinos all over the country. It started with river boats and offshore water craft that carried casinos and boats on motes. That would create or build a boat in a lake or create a mote for a boat to float in to strictly comply with the law that we not have a fixed facility which created an interesting issue. Any number of still operating casinos are actually vessels. They're not particularly passenger vessels or cruise ships but neither are they permanently attached facility that would be considered covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines. So while they are public accommodations open to the public, they may have a legitimate argument that they are not a covered 56 facility. That means they're covered under the ADA but don't have to meet the requirements of the ADAG. There are a number operating, although less and less, as we weaken prohibitions against casinos and gambling across the nation. Increasingly we're getting facilities built on land or are more permanently installed facilities as they weaken the boat on the mote or the boat on the river requirement or they're being built on American Indian or native American reservations, which is a whole other law. There's a limited applicability of the Americans with Disabilities Act but that's another webcast or you can redefine a technical bulletin that I know is archived on the DBTAC site written by an attorney still working with the DBTAC in Houston. Like I said, there's a number of circumstances where the casinos have this kind of defense. Even in passenger vessels -- passenger vessels that do business in the United States that make a part of this 57 entertainment universe have an obligation to be accessible. We don't have a set of currently enforceable standards but the access board responsible for writing the accessibility provisions that breathe life into those portions of the ADA having been working on and just published a proposed draft guideline on passenger vessel accessibility. So for -- but this will be for new vessels in the future, including sightseeing boats, casino boats and those cruise liners. However, most casinos are more accessible than many, many other places of public accommodation, and I think that's for obvious reason. They see money. They see the money that's available from -- that prototypical elderly patron who become disabled because of their age or age factors but also people with disabilities who still have enormous amount of cash with which they can be relieved. So -- and I think the review on our -- that we went to holds this out. 58 Any number, particularly the newer casinos and resorts, have more closely attended to the needs of people with the disabilities and the compliance of the ADA than other hotel settings and entertainment venues because they want to strip people with disabilities of all ages of their money. The last thing I do want to mention and I know this has been all over the place but I swear that I've got a plan and an outline and I want to get to this unless there's a bunch of burning questions -- I want to mention accessible temporary (indiscernible) also have obligations under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Accessible temporary events that include entertainment events are -- do have to be made accessible and there are some -- there is some good guidance generally in the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines but by very nature most temporary events don't have permanently installed structures unless 59 it's part of a fairground property and then you have the structures, to the extent those structures were constructed after the enforceable date have been altered or newly constructed they have to meet the same requirements under the Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines as any other facility open to the public. However with the addition of temporary structure and increased foot traffic and the fact that the entire site becomes a venue at certain times, such as outdoor concerts, fairs, or community cultural celebrations like Columbus day street festivals or religious and cultural celebrations, those need to be made accessible to the extent they're open to the public and there's some good guidelines from North Carolina state on making accessible -- on making temporary events accessible. It's not available on line and the DBTACs only have a very limited amount of these guidelines so if you're engaged in the planning of accessible 60 temporary events, particularly those things like fairs and cultural festivals, large cultural music festivals like, you know, jazz fest in New Orleans -- it may be something you want to consider getting. But understand you can require it -- acquire it from the NC state website but I think they have a minimal charge for it. It's a great resource. I wish I could have found it on line for free but it wasn't there. Those accessible temporary events have to do something and there's some good guidelines in that publication. Maria, you have questions in the last 8 minutes or so? >>>MARIE: No. >>>AARON: I want to thank everybody for having me here. If you have additional questions, feel free to get them to the DBTAC and they'll forward them to me and I'll try to answer them as quickly as possible. I want to thank everybody who participated and asked very good questions and again I 61 encourage you to check out future webcasts that are offered by the DBTAC and I'll hand it over to you. >>>MARIE: Thank you. We hope you all learned valuable information today and you will be able to access today's transcript and audio portion tomorrow on ILRU's website at www.ILRU.org. We would love your feedback. Please fill out the evaluation. We hope you will join us for upcoming sessions. Next week, access to medical facilities. Also I would like to thank those who made today's presentation possible, our funder NIDRR and this production would not be possible without the technical expertise of Rob Dickehuth and our real-time captioner, Jennifer. Everyone, have a good afternoon.