RICK WALTERS: And thanks to the good folks at ILRU, Richard, especially, and Darrell.

You've done such a wonderful job in preparing us that I hope I can live up to that and we will live up to that for the entire programming.

Hello everyone.

I am Rick.

Pennsylvania Department of Labor and Industry is our agency.

We are a combined state agency under the Department of Labor and Industry.

We have the Bureau of Vocational Rehabilitation Services where I work.

We have 15 district offices around the state of Pennsylvania.

I think we've said there are 67 counties in Pennsylvania that we cover with our 15 offices.

Being a combined agency, we do not have a Commission for the Blind, we have the Bureau of Blindness and Visual Services within our organization.

They have six district offices that are collocated with six of our DVRS district offices as well.

Just to keep this in perspective, I thinkwe heard that the Granite State has one CIL, I believe, and so we have 15 district offices and there are 18 centers for independent living in Pennsylvania.

So we have a lot of different levels of partnership that's going on around the state of Pennsylvania.

We tend to like to partner with lots of organizations.

We don't have our own state, job coaches or psychologists or doctors and those kinds of things.

We contract out and we partner with all of those folks in Pennsylvania.

We believe that partnerships are the most effective way to work together and add everyone's specialties together to help our customers with disabilities eventually end up in employment.

We have about 300, at any given time, about 360 vocational rehabilitation counselors working in Pennsylvania.

I just wanted to get through a few statistics with you so you understand how large we are and how we operate.

In the fiscal year 2013 we had 21,600 and some individuals just 
apply for services in Pennsylvania for OVR services.

During that year, we served, at one level or another, 83,000 individuals with disabilities in Pennsylvania.

Those who entered competitive employment or were helped to remain in competitive employment that year, it was a bit of a low year for us, 9,475 people.

Now, as we kind of relate a little bit to the reason we're all here this week, students transitioning from high school to employment, 3,822 students in Pennsylvania became employed in competitive employment.

And are on their way.

That was just that year, and that accounts for 38, over 38 percent of all of our vocational rehabilitation successes for that year.

We're very proud of that.

Close to 40 percent of our rehabs were transition age youth or those who began with us in transition.

So we were asked to talk a little bit about our preconceived notions.

So I'm an old guy and I really didn't get into being a rehabilitation counselor until 1987.

So in the 1980's, although I had, I went to school for rehab, I was a little bit out of the system.

So my understanding of centers for independent living, way back then, was it was kind of a mystery to me, really.

I knew a little bit about it.

That it was 50 percent or more people with disabilities working there.

I understood that some of the things that they were working on is accessible housing and advocacy and information and I knew that people with physical disabilities were being served because of the image that I had back in the day of what CILs were.

I also understood the value and remember the civil rights actions that had been taken in the 80's and 90's that were absolutely necessary and many of those were with the assistance of centers for independent living.

And I think that was important.

I also remember in Allentown the original director of our, Lehigh Valley Center for Independent Living, Carl Odner, organized a role on the mall it was called.

He was a wheelchair user and there were no curb cuts back then so this is one of the ways that back then I understood what CILs were or were like, and he got all, he got the mayor and he got all the, news folks out and put them in wheelchairs along with himselve and had them try and make their way around the city of Allentown without curb cuts.

It was really cool.

It was an excellent idea.

And it helped people understand that there was a lot of work to do.

There was a lot of work to do for folks.

So I've grown up.

I've learned a lot more about centers for independent living.

I've learned about the value that they bring to our entire partnership in helping individuals become independent.

There are mutual needs.

I think that we can all identify or mutual, yeah, mutual needs.

And what I think you would want to do, and this is what we've been asked to talk about, is how do you get into a more productive relationship with your local vocational rehabilitation manager.

Some ways that it happened for us and some ways that it might happen for you, we have advisory committees for all of our district offices in Pennsylvania.

And we really welcome folks who are representing the local CIL to be part of those advisory committees to give us advice on under served populations, on what we're doing well, what we're not doing well, what complaints are out in the community and how can you work better with us.

And that has been the way it's been with Lehigh Valley CIL for many years and that helps us to develop a trusting relationship with the members of the CIL and helps us understand that we do have mutual concerns and mutual needs that we can work together to try and get better at.

We also, I think every state should have a state plan public meeting is what we call it in Pennsylvania where the state organization, the OVR, asks people to come in and tell us what we can be doing better, again, how we might be able to better serve local populations and statewide populations and who we might be missing.

That's a wonderful opportunity for the CIL to come in and to speak publicly to what the needs are, and you could even call the district administrator or the RAM ahead of time and say I have these ideas about what might work in the vocational realm.

And talk over whether or not that would be a good idea to present at a public meeting for future reference and when money becomes available, maybe that's something that will be on the statewide radar again.

That's something that we can work together and perhaps start a new program.

Sorry, I have a sinus thing.

So what I'm saying is get in the same room, right, with the OVR folks.

And get in the same room with the manager if at all possible.

And then maybe you can suggest or work on a project that's perhaps low risk.

Customer achievement day was an OVR event that we held locally and Mr.

Odner at the time was a very big contributor to the ideas and how that would work.

He came up with the name of some of our awards for people with disabilities and, again, it showed a positive interest in the vocational aspects while maintaining a firm interest in IL as well by Mr.

Odner, but it also continued to build a relationship.

Then we had the opportunity to work together through a grant on a summer career program which was very, very successful and yet we didn't think about the fee-for-service later.

We didn't think about how to make that continue and although it was successful we weren't able to continue it after a grant opportunity.

A little bit later on I can recall people coming to our state plan meetings and saying we do not have enough sign language interpreters in the Lehigh Valley area.

We need a referral source.

And so my predecessor reached out to the Lehigh Valley CIL and talked about the possibilities and because of the positive relationship we've had in the past and the success we've had in the past, we did reach out and that program now has been running for ten, ten years.

And it has expanded.

And it is a fee-for-service program and it's been a wonderful addition and a great help for deaf individuals in our community.

And then, so we're working even more closely together and we're able to trust each other.

And, yeah, some things go wrong, but we're able to continue forward until the point where we have the opportunity to work together on Career Path which you've been hearing a lot about.

So why did we seek transition services from the CIL?

All of those things that we worked on together that turned out positively, that built our trust, it was a logical choice to work with the CIL.

So I would suggest, and what they did to start that program is to put together a sound, doable, innovative proposal when money becomes available, when there is a grant opportunity that you see that might involve vocational aspects for your customers that you may wish to work with.

So of course problems will happen.

You will need to have some patience with us.

We're just very, very busy, scattered folks.

We're dealing with many different disability realms, many different problems at the same time, although we will work with you and we will get plans made and we will be able to move forward with you.

You may have to wait for funding to become available.

Talk about good ideas, keep good ideas in mind, look for funding opportunities and then you'll be ready to strike when you see grant opportunities.

So transitioning from grant funding to fee-for-service, some things to think about, how many customers can we provide?

You may have a great idea, and I've seen these fail, you may have a wonderful idea, but if you really should go to your manager or your VR professional and say how many folks who would need this service can you provide?

And we'll take a look and we'll let you know whether or not it might be possible to do that.

So that's a really important question.

We have finite funds, and we provide a lot of cost services and so you might want to have a preliminary discussion with the manager, what can this region sustain?

What additional fee-for-service can be sustained?

And clearly you want to have an idea of how much you will need in an hourly or unit rate to be able to continue to provide service to folks.

And finally, this is a thing that we've been talking about, it's trust and transparency.

Aimee and I don't always do the right thing every time, but we understand each other that we're human.

We're all humans out here.

We're all doing the best we can for our customers with disabilities, and if we continue to communicate, we should be able to work through rough patches and continue providing the services.

You can share your quarterly reports with the local VR if you don't do that now just to talk over how the core services are going and how well you've been doing to show the manager that you are running a successful program.

Show that you are ready and able to accommodate new staff if you're going to bring a program on, you're going to have to hire people on.

You're going to have to have a place for them to be in your organization.

Be ready to provide detailed accounting of overhead and payroll and you'll hear a lot about that tomorrow I believe.

So that's my presentation.

I think what we'll be doing is taking any questions after we've all had a chance to speak.

Thank you.

LISA HATZ: Great.

Let me introduce myself.

First of all, thank you to all the staff that helped me still be a part of the program and we had a great morning with folks.

I really appreciate your allowing me to come in via Skype as we'll kind of get to in terms of barriers.

I've had a lot of staffing challenges lately and any of the VR staff that are in the audience probably can relate to that in some form or fashion.

Just so I have reference how much time do I have, Seth?

JUDITH HOLT: This session goes until 2:45.

But if Lisa would like to just present a little bit of an overview and comments about her world view of rehab and CIL and then Abbie will and then open up for questions.

So Lisa probably has 10 or 15 minutes if she'd like to take that.

LISA HATZ: That's fine.

I just didn't want to be talking too long or anything so I can tailor my comments.

So I have sort of the questions in front of me in terms of what is the view from VR on this partnership?

And I think a little bit about me just so folks kind of know where I'm coming from, I started as a VR counselor in, actually in Maryland and then came to New Hampshire and worked as a VR counselor here and then as a supervisor and then as the administrator and now as a director.

And so I've kind of seen our collaborations and our work with Granite State Independent Living with our Independent Living Center from a bunch of different perspectives.

You know, first working with their staff as teammates so to speak, helping our customers with job placements and different things.

And then certainly from a more administrative standpoint.

I was really, I think, lucky to be a part of us developing the Earn and Learn program with Granite State Independent Living when we received ARRA funding in 2009.

And I think it was really, I think my philosophy in life is that everything happens for a reason.

And so I believe that that was sort of our preparation for WIOA which we all know is the new law that we're going to be working with from here on out and how the work that we're going to be doing with transitioning youth really plays into that.

How do we know about IL?

We've had a long, great history.

I think great relationship with Granite State Independent Living in our state.

They are the only Independent Living Center, and I think we have a really common, we have really common goals and we have a lot of common customers.

Were there any preconceived notions?

I don't really think so.

I think it's very natural, and if Peter Darling was in the audience there, you know, we have a really natural relationship and our customers are really served as beneficially by each program.

So I don't think we've had any preconceived notions.

I think, if anything, we really learned the process evolved and we learned from each other and with each other as we developed our transition program.

And we've tweaked things here and there, you know, not just with GSIL, but with the school districts as well.

And, you know, I think when we put out our RFP process, of course that was a competitive process with the ARRA funding, but it was really, I think some of it was GSIL already had great background in providing the projects with industry services to our youth with disabilities in the state and they had really put together and done the research to really show how their program could bring together the necessary components to serve the students that we were looking at, students that were looking at dropping out or had dropped out.

And reengaging them in education and getting them into a Career Path and so I think that's really why we chose to work with GSIL, is their experience, and I think the strength of all the programs that they have within their organization as well.

Problems and barriers, I would say that the biggest barrier has been my staffing challenges from a VR perspective.

And our agency has, like many agencies, gone through a lot of staff turnover for various reasons, retirements, promotions, maternity leave and mom's choosing not to come back to work.

And sometimes people just moving on because it wasn't the right, the right job match.

But that has been probably one of the bigger barriers to us just keeping momentum sometime.

If you don't have that staff continuity, it does make it difficult for the team to really stay together.

Now, we manage because I think our leadership, myself and Tina Grecco who is our transition coordinator, we really stay in touch with Peter Darling, with Maureen O'Donnell, with all of the staff at GSIL, they also send us monthly and quarterly reports, which is really helpful.

So we can kind of stay on top of things if we need to attend a meeting, if we need to get back together and discuss anything, we can really do that.

You know, I think that the program is tremendous.

The other partner that I really want to mention in this is the school district.

Ken Duesing is there from the Manchester School District and they have really been tremendous, not only are they, you know, paying for a portion of our program.

You know, as we said in our morning sessions, we all win in this program because students are obtaining high school credits towards graduation and then they are also receiving those soft skills and those employment skills, those work-based learning experiences that they talk about in our new law that really going to help them get into a good Career Path.

And so it's been, I think, a tremendous partnership.

The other partners they may or may not have talked about, they probably did yesterday I'm thinking, are the banking and the health companies that have come in to do certain components of the training for students which has really showed the students some resources that they weren't aware of that they had available to them.

So, let's see...

recommendation for CILs and other states about how to approach VR.

Well, you know, again, I think we're really fortunate to have such a tremendous relationship with our Independent Living Center and our common goals.

I think trying to make it a win-win for each side is really how you need to approach VR.

You need to have staff capacity and you need to have those services and I think the connections to the schools or to your other partners that can really make a difference so that all the sides are benefiting.

And of course your mutual customers are gaining more financial independence, and doing all the things that, you know, that our administration wants them to do going forward in this new job-driven training world.

I think one of the pieces of WIOA that's going to be really important is our connection to the community colleges and how they might be also one of the big partners in this and I have a feeling that's a lot of the conversations that we're going to be part of next.

So that's what I would say in terms of a general overview.

I'm hoping that that's meeting folks' needs and I guess I'll turn it back to you.

ABBIE WELLS HERZOG: Well, I'm Abby Wells-Herzog.

I'm with the Minnesota voc rehab, and voc rehab is our major agency that voc rehab falls under is the Minnesota Department of Employment and Economic Development or DEED.

Where voc rehab is under that as well as our state services for the blind.

and we have our director, Kim Peck came on board and David and I were trying to figure that out the other day.

It's like 2003,-4, something like that and she really brought a different view to voc rehab in Minnesota.

She's very collaborative and previously our previous directors weren't so collaborative.

And so this was a big change for a lot of the staff in voc rehab.

And a lot of new innovations came about and we did a lot more around partnering with the schools and the community, with IL, and we started creating more of a partnership with our community rehab providers after Kim came in.

I talked to a few people here who were talking about how voc rehab sees how they almost work, they view that the voc rehab folks see that IL works for them almost.

And in Minnesota I think, I think we're more partners with our community rehab providers, we're on an even, just on an even playing field.

We work together to get the job done getting people jobs.

And I hand that over to Kim Peck as she's responsible for just really changing our view of our, and our relationships.

As David has also mentioned in preve, some of the previous sessions, you know, our relationship wasn't always great with IL.

And when Kim Peck, our director, put up to all the managers for voc rehab and David and said, we've got to figure this out.

How are we going to make this work for the state?

And then they came up with these new ideas and the new initiatives.

As I said earlier this morning, you know, most of the field staff were, oh, another new thing.

Here it will be gone in two years or whatever, when the IL, the idea of actually putting IL staff in our offices, embedding them within the voc rehab offices was brought up.

And that idea that we would have some money from IL in our service office, we had no idea that the change it was going to make to our services that we provided our consumers and our job seekers.

Before our IL VR collaboration, I think most of the voc rehab staff in the fields had somewhat idea of what IL did.

I knew a little bit, not a lot.

I'd refer for some classes, occasionally if somebody needed bus training or it was an advocacy issue or some, if I wasn't quite sure where I should send somebody for an advocacy issue usually I would send them over to MCIL.

I used them more than a lot of my co- workers did as a counselor, but I don't think it was really understood what all, the breadth of what they could do and the services they had to offer.

And I think when we did embrace them, and they were actually in our offices, the things that our counselors started to refer to the IL staff in the offices, we we'd say what could you do?

And they'll say, tell me what you want done?

So pretty soon they were helping people fill out paperwork.

They were helping them study for their driver's license exam.

They were taking them shopping for clothes for an interview when they call up and say I have an interview tomorrow and I have nothing to wear.

They were working on mock interviewing and they videotaped mock interviewing so some of our job seekers could see what they look like as they are doing the interviews and then we could work on developing some better skills.

It's really the IL folks would do just the services we needed to step up on that first rung of the ladder as we get more and more ready for employment.

And I will say when that started occurring, it started taking a lot of the pressure off the voc rehab staff in the field.

And before it was always on the shoulders of the voc rehab counselor to do most of those things.

Whether we had to run out and purchase clothes or do mock interviews or we had to figure out or by services, purchase services on an hourly basis to have somebody help somebody study for a permit test or things like that.

It really took a lot of the pressure off of the counselors and I think we realized how valuable the IL services were.

And that's something that I think surprised a lot of people.

And so when we started out as just a three year project and when the three years came up, and we were looking at whether there would be funding available and it looked like there might not be funding available to continue the services, I will tell you that the field staff was livid.

They were so upset.

And a lot of our core area managers got an ear full about starting a program that we have found to be so useful to our counselors and our job seekers and then not being able to sustain it and continue it.

And I think that really made a big impact to our administration that how important this was to our field staff.

And they figured out a way to carry it forward for another nine months and then the legislature, when they looked at all the data and figured out that this was really making a big impact on our consumers and more people were getting jobs from just embedding one person in a voc rehab office, the legislature said this is a great idea and then they really helped us come through with the funding on a more consistent basis now.

I think one, when I talked to several of you about the relationship between voc rehab and IL, around the country, I'm kind of surprised.

I'll be honest with you.

You know, it wasn't really great in Minnesota for a long time, but I think that as other people have mentioned with several of the new initiatives and the new laws and legislation, we're going to have to do something different.

We all can't just stay in our little silos, and so as my, I would recommend as we approach you, if you are going to approach a counselor about considering purchasing IL services, I think developing a relationship first before you ask for something is probably the best thing in developing relationships.

I'm saying, okay, can you meet me at a coffee shop and can we just talk about, so I can pick your brain about what services do you think that would be really helpful for you right now.

You know, just stopping in now and then and kind of circulating through the office and kind of talking to people so they know who you are.

I know people are really busy, but if you can join any kind of group of people who are like a community of practice around transition or if you can join a group like an advisory committee where other, where VR staff are also involved, that would really help you get to know people, too.

Once you develop those relationships, then you can talk to them more about referring and I was talking to a couple of folks yesterday at my table and they were saying, well, they have certain people they refer to and that's it.

Well, I will say as a voc rehab counselor and an autism specialist, too, but I have certain, I have community rehab providers that I do favor.

Okay, I do.

Okay.

And the reason I favor them is because when I ask, when I refer somebody to them, they get the job done.

They'll help people get whatever they need to get into a job.

I have one of my wonderful vendors I work with, his name is Andy and I know if I give Andy one of my guys for a starter job, I always like to refer to it as a starter job so they can develop some employment skills, that he will get them a job.

So I know when I refer to Andy, it will get done.

So, yeah, I do have favorite, but it's because they've shown me that they'll put all their effort and do what they say they are going to do and follow through.

And they are going to do a good job.

And that's kind of human nature.

They are going to refer to people and you're going to interact with people that you feel comfortable with.

And so it is again about relationships and building relationships.

Trying to think what else I can tell you about.

Voc rehab I think, I had a counselor when I first started.

He had been a counselor for like 35 years and he told me that, Abbie, you know, rehab counselors are mavericks.

We're not really social workers and we're not really psychologists, we're mavericks.

We don't like to follow the rules very much.

And I don't know how you feel about that, Rick.

Yeah, pretty much.

Okay.

And so, you know, when, they're just human beings like everybody else.

Approach them and develop a relationship and those other things are going to come.

Your referrals are going to come if you're doing good work.

That would be my recommendation.

So thank you.

JUDITH HOLT: First of all, it's all relationship, relationship, relationship.

But Abbie didn't tap dance.

I noticed that she just ignored that whole possibility.

And we're so glad that Lisa could join us.

So we've got everyone here.

So we'd like to take questions now and I'm sure there will be a lot of them.

Just direct the question either to the panel or to an individual.

Okay?

Over here?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, this question is directed mostly towards Rick and Lisa.

Yesterday we learned that in Minnesota voc rehab consumers who were simultaneously receiving IL services through the embedded, through the IL specialists who are embedded in the voc rehab offices were placed about 67 percent of the time versus voc rehab consumers who didn't receive IL services getting placed about 55 percent of the time which is huge.

So I already have this request in to Abbie, but I wanted to also ask Rick and Lisa and any other voc rehab people who might be in the room, can you point me to any evidence- based research that IL services improve employment outcomes.

It would be really nice to try to convince California's department of rehabilitation to think more about IL services, it would be nice point them to a nice, scholarly footnoted paper of some sort, proofing our point.

RICK WALTERS: Take it away, Lisa.

LISA HATZ: Sure, I could barely hear the question and I can't see anybody.

You know, I guess I wouldn't, I don't know necessarily that there is any sort of empirical research that I'm aware of, but what I would say is I think that we do have a lot of, there is a lot of educational professionals around the U.S.

right now that are really trying to put together what are those best practices, what are those evidence-based practices that are really taking people somewhere?

I think the unfortunate thing is with our project, we have what we think is a great program as a collaborative.

And yet nobody really has the money to say, okay, is it evidence-based.

You know, I do think that with WIOA, there may be an opportunity for us to do some of that work because that's what the government, that's what, you know, our Congress wants to know.

What is really going to help people with disabilities obtain and maintain employment and personal and financial independence?

I mean, that's my thought into this.

Other folks from VR can certainly weigh in.

I don't know of any particular evidence, but I know that we have an opportunity coming up and folks, you know, folks like the organizations that we're working with here at the conference, I'm sure have some of that information as well.

So I guess I would start there and hand it off to other folks.

RICK WALTERS: Yeah, I certainly don't have any empirical evidence as locally in Minnesota, but I do have an anecdote, I am full of those.

I can tell you that Amy and I, before we came to this conference have talked about when she gets more space for her program, which she just moved in, we talked about having one of my VR counselors spend time at the CIL for questions and referrals and having one of her specialists come over to the OVR office and occupy an office there.

Kind of similar to what's been going on in the granite state.

No, Minnesota.

They don't have granite in Minnesota.

It's cheese.

Anyway, we really are going to try that as a little local experiment and I, as a VR professional in Pennsylvania, really like that idea of what's going on in Minnesota and I would not be at all surprised if we were able to pull that down in numbers that show that folks who received services from both organizations probably have a better chance to succeed.

JUDITH HOLT: Just one comment, and yes I come from a university.

I'm sorry about that.

But I think you've already got some great partnerships going, and there is other partnerships that we haven't heard about.

Please think about trying to collect your data.

Trying to think about how you can show this is making a difference.

It doesn't have to be a massive multimillion dollar research project that a university somewhere is running or someone out of DC is running, but as you collect data and look at it, data is very powerful, and I think it's really important as you continue these relationships, think about the data collection so we'll have an evidence base for this.

Another question?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, Becky Fay.

I'm with an IL organization now in Manassas, but I used to be with Maximus.

An account manager with the Ticket to Work program and I trained and managed probably over 65 employment networks, many of them in my region were Independent Living Centers.

And there was some animosity between the VR and the IL first.

VR couldn't actually wrap their heads around how an IL could actually offer employment services.

Well, we brought them to the table, not just the directors, but the counselors and the intake workers and the IL folks and the advocates and out of that came a program where, for fee-for-service and they shared the Ticket to Work.

Okay, so what we were talking about earlier is that this youth in transition component lends itself really to filtering right into that, and through the Ticket to Work program, there is plenty of evidence-based data on youth in transition going to IL programs actually that are federally approved employment networks offering already employment services that have met with lots of success and great outcomes.

So I think that there is some, I wouldn't even call it a pilot program.

It's just something that's developed in Virginia, but they had to really get over some old stuff before they realized the value of that partnership in Virginia, in particular.

And I know, as we see here today it's in other places, too.

But there is evidence-based data in regards to that.

I just wanted to let you know.

JUDITH HOLT: That's excellent.

Just one point of information.

Does everyone understand what an Employment Network is, an what an EN is?

JUDITH HOLT: Okay, just checking.

If anyone doesn't, you know who to ask.

All right, another question.

RICK WALTERS: I'd just like to respond very quickly.

When Amy and I started talking about the possibility of Career Path and them perhaps going for the grant, my first thought was can they do that?

That's vocational.

And then that passed pretty quickly.

Wow, let's try that.

So yeah.

Things change for the better.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yeah, this is Michael from Mobile, so two questions.

I heard the young lady saying that she has her favorites, or favorite.

And you're right, everybody does.

I'm bad about it.

Just out of curiosity, some of the CIL people, like do you all invite them to your offices, say, on a biweekly basis it's, monthly basis, not just for an update, but just to be familiar with their staff?

Because, you know, sometimes staff comes and goes and so I'm just kind of curious.

It's been awhile since I've done something like that where I've taken my staff to VR and said, okay, here we are.

We've got all the good stuff y'all need, and so I'm curious about that.

That's one thing.

Then connecting the dots, do you all work with, in any way with VOA and taking consumers from VOA who have the ability to work and channel them to CILs.

ABBIE WELLS HERZOG: Yes, I do have, I like it when you call me young.

Thank you.

I do have a favorite, and, you know in our, on our voc rehab team we actually do have some of our community rehab providers.

They will be invited to our team meetings and usually how that occurs is they will contact our RAM, our area manager, and say, hey, we'd like to come to team meeting and tell you, remind you what we do or tell you about updates or kind of come and see, hear what your staff say about what we're doing well or what kind of help they need and so they'll just come in and maybe do like a 15, 20, sometimes people get wordy and it's 45 minute kind of this is what we do, how can we work together better kind of thing.

And so, yeah, we have that happen all the time on our teams.

And then the second question, what's DOA?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

JUDITH HOLT: VOA, Volunteers of America.

DOA, dead on arrival.

V, volunteers.

ABBIE WELLS HERZOG: And as far as them coming, I don't, is that for a voc rehab question or was that for an IL?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Really Volunteers of America are a huge nonprofit that are not everywhere.

So some of you wouldn't even have a VOA.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I know some states don't have VOA's, but they are everywhere, kind of like 18,000 employees all over the country.

And so I'm just kind of curious, you know, because the gamut of services I'm sure from VR ranges from, you know, wherever IQ wise and functionality wise and of course Independent Living Centers serve everyone.

So I'm kind of curious to know if VR connects to VOA to connect to CILs?

RICK WALTERS: To the best of my knowledge, not in Pennsylvania at this time is there any kind of a connection, formal or otherwise, with VOA.

I can say that I think speaking to your first question that we have our vocational, every new vocational rehabilitation counselor or intern who comes on board at some part of our training regimen with them is to send them to the CIL and to have a presentation by the staff at the CIL to talk about all of their services and how they can partner with us and Amy and I have been looking at the next opportunity perhaps to do a kind of reverse and have their new folks come as well to our office to get to know the counselors, find out exactly what we do and how we can work together.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Chicago again.

I'm sorry, not really.

Just curious about data collection.

We've been witnessing in our agency the front line staff having to duplicate if not triplicate data because of required databases for each funding stream, so just an example, specifically is with our housing counseling service that we provide that's federally funded from HUD, they require a date base for themselves, but then we also want collect 704 data, so then we have a CIL, a CIL reporting tool so that I can report accurately our numbers.

Another example is for the state in terms of our, when we were doing money follows the person in our state, we had to record in a centralized database for the nurses that were a collaborator on the program plus then another database for the VR system that keeps track of all the home services programs and then as well in our CIL database.

We had to do it triple and then we were held accountable about not doing a very good job on those notes.

So we're like, okay, we have to accept that we have to triplicate all this data.

So I heard, there is in some of these projects a database that is, you guys were sharing.

I think in Minnesota, is that right?

You guys have a shared database.

So I'm kind of curious about, we tried to like look, just how to do that is really crappy and my front line staff, we have a day where we have to come in and do your data entry, but you have to be at your desk.

They call it lock down Thursday and fondly, as director of independent living, I believe it's fondly.

So I mean as we kind of collaborate, I'm just curious about this data collection thing.

We cannot do data dumps because of all the different fields are different for each database.

So it's not going, we don't go down that road and have a deadened.

When we talk about data collection, eww, I don't know, do people have other things besides doing it in duplication or in triple?

ABBIE WELLS HERZOG: I know we struggled with that originally when the IL staff came in because we couldn't figure out how to allow them access to our system.

But they did some, do you know what they did, Dave?

So that they can actually get in now and use the DAVE HANCOX: I know that initially the hesitation to allow IL staff access to workforce one which is the internal database that you guys work on, was prohibition that was put in place by legal.

Your legal staff said, oh, no, no, IL staff can't get into that database because it has proprietary information, blah, blah, blah.

So it was staff internal at VR that created a secondary kind of shadow database where we could initially input the data while the service was being delivered that allowed the IL staff access to that and then once the case is closed, it gets, as I understand it, once the case is closed it gets transferred into workforce one and then we don't have access to it any longer.

While the case file is open and the collaborative services are being delivered simultaneously, that information is available to both.

ABBIE WELLS HERZOG: Right.

DAVE HANCOX: So it's like a temporary third, it's not the database that we use internally either because we use CIL suite at MCIL.

And then VR has workforce one and then there is this third kind of temporary holding spot, if you will, that we can both access to view that data.

and then the reports that are produced are actually produced out of workforce one by VR staff that the data reports and things like that, that are then shared with us, but I don't have the ability to go in and manipulate that data.

It comes to me as a finished report.

Does that answer the question?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yeah.

I mean, it just confirms when we talk about data collection and collaboration, this is something to consider.

JUDITH HOLT: That is one of the issues, the challenges that any collaboration will face these days is that whole data accountability piece.

I didn't know if Rick or Lisa had any other comments about that they'd like to add?

RICK WALTERS: I think that's above my pay grade.

LISA HATZ: Yeah, we don't have any shared databases, but you know the one thing that I'll say about it is it certainly is an efficiency piece and I think that's what I heard from Minnesota is, you know, it took out some of the duplication.

It also allowed you to get the information in as it was happening, which I think is important.

It's sort of that on time concept.

And, you know, between, with our collaboration, there isn't so much a need, there could be a need in terms of putting in case notes about how a student is doing in the program and progress and things, which I think would be really helpful.

You know, and there could be data exchange agreements or, I don't see why those things couldn't be put in place.

I think you have to have a really good collaboration and I heard the word trust before.

You have to have good trust.

You have to understand ethics and all those things, too.

So there is a lot of considerations, but I think there is a lot of positives that could come from it, too.

So that's what I would add.

JUDITH HOLT: So all you have to do now with your new partnerships and collaborations and existing ones is make sure you collect data collaboratively that can be shared with legal being happy with everything, and second, get a research piece in there, okay?

That's all.

Other questions?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I'm Brian Mosley from Center for Independent Living in Augusta, Georgia.

And my question, well in reference to the data collection, Social Security just did a national survey on all the employment networks across the country to see how well they rated amongst, with their outcomes.

So that would give some sense of data as far as if the employment networks are or not working through that Ticket to Work program.

But something I noticed I haven't heard as far as relation to the collaborational piece is that the Social Security Administration did allow for a collaborative effort between employment networks and vocational rehabilitation in reference to helping clients under that program obtain employment.

And so there should be another database that is accessible to both the CILs as well as VR as long as it's in relationship to Ticket to Work program and then finally I wanted the panel to address, therefore, do you see that Ticket to Work program and that partnership between VR and any employment network, whether it be a CIL or not, as a key role player in this new movement towards transition since the outcome is actually going to be post send secondary life so employment and so forth.

Do you see that partnership in the employment network, Ticket to Work program, being a viable piece and can that data be used also to at least reflect on if someone that's receiving services from both CIL and VR is more impact full than if it's just from one separate?

RICK WALTERS: I think that's a great idea.

And I think that is a place where if more CRP's become EN's and kind of pick up after VR leaves off or, you know, shares in that eventual rehabilitation, I know that that system works.

We do it now with some of our providers who are interested in being an EN and has been working smoothly and I think it should expand.

And I hope more providers take advantage of that opportunity and, yeah, I think we've already heard that we've been getting some data on those partnerships.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right, and I just wanted to say, Brian, just to interject a little bit here, actually when a ticket is shared between an employment network, whether it is a CIL or whether it's not, with the VR, the database that maintains that relationship is with the Ticket to Work management organization Maximus.

Now, the VR and the CIL, the employment network probably has their own separate data but they can actually access that information and outcomes definitely will be tracked because you get the revenue from the success of outcomes and the different Phase I, Phase II stages of that partnership with that ticket, but it would almost be like reinventing the wheel to develop another separate database just to establish that data when it's really already been monitored.

RICK WALTERS: May I ask you then, is that available publicly, the data that's being – AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, they did have a system on the choose work website where you could go in and assess different employment networks because a ticket holder can choose whatever employment network they want to assign their ticket to no matter where that employment network is in the country if they accept out of state tickets, but you can go in and assess how successful an employment network or actually the VR, is a little bit more secretive with the VR's rates.

But they do have data in regards to how many tickets are assigned to each individual VR.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Carma Franco with HOCTIL, Heart of Central Texas Indepenent Living Center.

We are an unemployment network also and that portal system, there is two pieces that she's talking about, the choose work site that gives a grade to the employment network, whether it's a CIL or not.

And then the other piece is what can the VR agency and what can the EN, the employment network, see in the portal.

And they call it an IVR portal.

And that portal shows you whether that ticket is in use by the VR agency or whether they've had a successful closure.

Now, the employment network cannot pick up that ticket until it's a successful closure unless they have an agreement on that client sharing him and once they close it and then the EN picks up services at that time.

Now, a successful closure to our VR agency, I'll give you one example, is that they have their own, what do you call it, it's not maintenance, janitorial type services where they put clients into this supported employment environment and once that person is employed by that supported employment component, they call it a successful closure because he's employed.

It's not that he's making over what they call SGA or substantial gainful employment.

It's note that he's making over 750 or any amount because if he's on SSI, of course, after that first $85 his employment is affecting his check.

If it's SSDI it's a completely different, that's actually a good program to be on SSDI when you're trying to go back to work, but what I was going to try to say is that when you do see that a ticket is in use on that system, you can, and we do frequently, work with the case manager.

Just call and they usually know who their case manager is.

And I did say case management.

They know who their case manager is at the VR agency, so you can actually work with them and usually they'll come to your office and you'll talk about who will create what services and it becomes an agreement between you about what you're going to do.

It's not particularly fee-for-service, but after the employment network collects their money for the person gaining that employment, then the VR agency can come back and say you owe us or we need $2,000 because we invested $2,000 into that person.

So you end up paying back that VR agency.

Kind of complicated.

JUDITH HOLT: You know what, it sounds like Richard and Darrell just a hint maybe, that as the employment networks have grown, I remember when they first, the concept was first invented, okay?

And now they've grown, matured, more data actual data, which is good.

It might be a good topic for a webinar because I think this is a very interesting topic but it drops down pretty deep pretty fast in order to monitor what's going on and evidently a lot of CILs are involved in these ENs so that's great.

This might be a good webinar topic to think about if you have nothing else going on, okay?

Other questions?

I was at a table during lunch, well, before lunch, and a gentleman indicated, I said something about, well, find a school to work with.

And he just looked at me like, and where did this lady come from?

And he said I'm in a metropolitan area.

So I asked him to clarify.

And he's in Los Angeles.

So he has a plethora of schools to choose from.

I mean more than we have in Utah total, I'm sure.

He could probably add Wyoming, Idaho and North Dakota and he would still be ahead.

And a lot of different VR folks to work with.

I'm not saying y'all why in Los Angeles, and if you're in an area and I'd like to hear what the panelists have to say.

If you're in an area where you have lots of choices, how do you figure out where you invest your time and your energy to develop or further these partnerships and collaborations?

Suggestions?

 Minnesota?

ABBIE WELLS HERZOG: I'm already mic-ed.

Well, in Minnesota, we've already done some of the outreach already to schools.

This has been an initiative from a really important initiative within Minnesota VR for, oh, about ten years or more.

A few years ago we decided that we were going to reach 20 percent of the students in Minnesota that had IEPs.

That was our goal.

And so we really expanded our transition services within Minnesota.

They hired a transition specialist to direct all the activities, and we reached that goal.

And so right now there is a voc rehab counselor assigned to every high school in Minnesota.

And the best practice in Minnesota is to develop, for the larger schools I should say, the best practice is develop a standing schedule where like every Thursday you'll be at one school.

Every Monday you'll be at another school.

Some of our out in the rural areas where maybe they're covering, you know, eight schools and they are all a huge distance a part, they may do something like where they'll stop in once a month because they are smaller schools, but they still have a schedule.

And since MCIL is going to be expanding some of their services into the schools, I would suspect that the IL staff might want to use some of our contacts in the school.

Dave is sitting there going, because we already have the contacts.

I mean, and we worked hard to get in the schools because not all, not all schools want us there at first because it's like, well, we did this before and, you know, it never works and people don't, so we worked hard to get in there and develop relationships and we have pretty good relationships across the state.

So there is occasionally still some bumps, but I would suspect that that's something we'll share with our IL partner in helping them get into more schools.

RICK WALTERS: As far as OVR is concerned, I think we have something like 500 school districts in Pennsylvania, which is too many by any standards.

But we have the same kind of system.

Some of our offices, my office, we have transition counselors who 100 percent of the case load is transition age students moving through.

And we do that because we have the third largest METRO area as well as a lot of rural territory as well.

It just works out better for us that way to have someone who is very much a counselor who is keyed in only to school districts and only to attending IEPs and becomes much more of a specialist in working with education in that situation.

and I also am aware that CILs like  the Lehigh Valley Center for Independent Living as you know have been going into schools and developing programs for their students with disabilities.

And finally, again back to OVR, we have added a new position to all of our districts which is called the early reach coordinator.

And that early reach coordinator is being assigned to go to all of the transition council meetings and all of the parent night meetings and to the Kiwanis club and wherever this person can go to talk about our ability to work with younger students if it's absolutely necessary to help them matriculate along, but also, oh, to get the word to families and younger students that OVR is there and what OVR can be doing now.

What OVR can do for them in the future and also to be a referral source for them to other agencies at the younger age to help them move along vocationally, thinking about the vocational interests and their soft skills until they get to us.

JUDITH HOLT: Lisa, any comments?

LISA HATZ: I don't think I have a whole lot else to add.

I think we're in just a different spot in terms of our geography and we're very small.

I do have a counselor covering all the schools in New Hampshire, I think it's around 77 schools.

I think the challenge has been our turn over and a real challenge there for us has been the schools tend to snap our transition counselors right up.

Because they give them 45,000 a year and summers off.

So I can't compete with that.

JUDITH HOLT: So this is interesting because each of their responses, they really talked about from a CIL perspective what I think you would be hearing is, ah, rehab already has that mandate to be in the schools.

They could probably help us open some doors to schools that were collaborative, that wanted to do things with us.

Sometimes as Independent Living Centers, I think we emphasize the independent and we've got to do this on our own, but other people have similar mandates, not identical, but similar, and if you partner with them it may enable you to move into some of these relationships a little bit faster, a little bit better.

I don't think I answered all your questions about Los Angeles, but thought we'd give it a shot.

Any other questions?

We have just a couple more minutes.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Is anyone working with military bases in their area because the military has a program called Exceptional Family Members and I know that our area of VR, OVR is actually working with them as are we and I just wondered if anyone else has those experiences because although they have similar school programs, they are under the DOD, under the Department of Defense.

RICK WALTERS: I'm not sure about military bases.

I am sure that maybe five years ago OVR decided that it was very important for us to be more attentive to veterans throughout Pennsylvania.

So each of our offices now has a dedicated counselor, a veterans voc rehab counselor and has a case load only for veterans and then goes out and develops relationships with the VA hospitals and any other VA rehab counselors as well, the local workforce, VA, I forget what they are called, but those people as well.

And I think it's been very helpful for us.

I think we're reaching more veterans now.

We're going out and talking to veterans more often about what it is that we can do for them.

I'm sorry, I can't really answer the base, you know, what's going on particularly with any military bases in Pennsylvania, but I do know statewide we're very much focused on that and doing a good job I think on that.

ABBIE WELLS HERZOG: I am unaware of any special initiatives around the bases, but I know we have worked, we have increased training and have initiative representative to work with more veterans more efficiently.

JUDITH HOLT: Just to speak to that really briefly, ACL, the Administration on Community Living where the CIL, the independent living program will now be housed, has had an initiative several years ago to work with families who had children, young adults with disabilities, who were military and to try and connect the families with also the appropriate civilian resources.

And what I found in that project is there is an incredible disconnect sometimes between what the military offers and what's offered in the civilian sector and often families are unsure how they can access either to be honest with you.

Both have some barriers, so I think if you're not looking at some of those issues, certainly I know you're seeing a lot more veterans I would think in the Independent Living Centers themselves, but you might consider the transition age, too, as a really important population that's very easy to kind of fall through the cracks between a lot of services, but just not quite getting it altogether.