PAULA MCELWEE: This is your group from Pennsylvania. 

And you remember some of the presentations yesterday and they are here today to give you in-depth answer your questions, give you longer explanations of anything you wanted to know about. 

They are going to lead off with the questions that you have already turned in that came from the sticky notes, and so they will address some of those to kind of get you warmed up and get you thinking about the topic again and get you going. 

I think that is the plan. 

Who would like the mic first? 

AMY BECK: I always call myself the mother of LVCIL. 

In a good way. 

So I will start. 

But I do want to say, feel free to move closer to us, the other thing is for us to come individually to your table, but we thought we could start off with answering questions that you all had in the different group setting that you had yesterday, so, the first one, and some of these are going to be dealt with for all of us together at lunchtime. 

But the first one on our list is to reiterate a little bit about in our Career Path program we offered that 8 week skills training and talk a little bit about that. 

We actually are on a 4 week cycle, but I will pass this over to Joe and let him talk about how many hours, how it works for days of the week. 

JOE MICHENER: So the, wow, that is really loud. 

So the question was, what does it look like in skills training when a young adult attends. 

It is not 5 days a week, it is 3 days a week. 

Typically a young adult attends from 8:30 in the morning to about 3 in the afternoon with appropriate breaks throughout the day. 

And that is for the entire 8 weeks, so the young adult is coming every Wednesday, Thursday, Friday from 8:30 to 3 and then in addition to that on Mondays and Tuesdays we typically have young adults come in for individual services whether that be working on a resume or doing something specific that they are interested in doing. 

So I think that probably answers the question, as Amy said it is on a 4 week cycle. 

We have young adults start the program every 4 weeks, so the 8 weeks of curriculum is broken into 2 four week sections, so that no matter when a person starts they get both sections of the curriculum if that makes any sense. 

AMY BECK: you know the way Cara is going to be talking in depth on Friday about how you develop your fee for, sorry Thursday, my days have blurred together. 

But that is, you can start thinking about how much do you know about what it costs you to do the work you do. 

There are many many factors that you have to take into consideration to develop what your fee is and what our fee is, is absolutely not going to be exactly right for you because all of your costs are different. 

But we are going to be able to talk about the components that going into figuring that out and actually when we did that with Career Path, we worked extremely closely with Rick Walters, raise your hand Rick, our VR, our district administrative local VR office. 

Many many drafts and many pieces that we were definitely told needed to be included in that fee for service and I don't know if every VR would work that way, but it did help us in a way to structure, but I wanted to talk a little bit about in starting that Career Path program, you know we are condensing everything for you, I think you don't, it is hard to get the history and the feel that it did not just happen. 

We knew that centers for independent living could do a great job on vocational services, I mean we just knew in our hearts. 

I knew that we could do it better in a way. 

One of the ways that we realized this, is kind of comical, but we have always been open to other employment service providers for years, before we had the Career Path to bring people with disabilities to the CIL for a community based work assessment. 

You know they are going to try out some job duties for 3 or 4 hours with a staff person there observing and assessing. 

And you know, I had a few experiences that started giving me a little bit of concern with one provider who is no longer in business and there are several of those. 

I had a call one day and I was the contact for calling Amy to see if someone could volunteer do this community based work assessment and the job coach on the other end of the phone said, I don't know if you guys can help me, I don't think it is possible, but there is a guy who is a paraplegic that has been referred to us and they don't get jobs, right? 

Now he can't see me on the other end of the phone and I said yeah people with all types of disabilities work and he goes but what could they do and can they come here for an assessment and I said yes of course you may bring him in for an assessment. 

With some other providers occasionally our staff would be saying, oh my gosh that person up there, they are not dressed to be in our workplace, he has a baseball hat on and ripped jeans on. 

And I am thinking a person with a disability would dress that way for a job assessment, I would go up front. 

It was not the person with a disability, it was the job coach. 

And I had so many experiences like that, we actually had a meeting with Rick and some of his staff to say, could we do some disability sensitivity training for some of the job coaches in the area and that kind of lit a light bulb for us, like wait a minute, we get it, we should be doing this. 

And when we talked about these innovation and expansion grants, and that is something that has come up through VR occasionally, this one is monies from the recovery act, the ARRA, and that we had to respond to a lot of deliverables, it was a bear to write it, I have a great grant writer, we work as a team between our fiscal and all the rest of our directors, Cara, really shaping us, we asked a lot of hard questions. 

But we just really felt we could not pass up this opportunity. 

It was a lot of goals, it was a lot of work and we were worried every single day that we would not meet the goals, but we knew we were giving 100 per cent on them. 

It would have been hard to start Career Path without that because you, now if a CIL has some endowment, or has had some surpluses over the years and you have money that you could talk with your board and decide about using some reserve funds to start a program it would have been hard for us to do that at that time. 

To pay staff until and develop, you know, the thing the grant really did for us was gave us time to develop materials, get out in the community, make it known, and really gave a chance for a lot of interaction with the team at OVR to make the program good. 

You have to, you know we are lucky that we worked with Rick and his staff closely for many years. 

Some of that he is going to be talking about that later but, that you have to take feedback. 

But you also have to set your limits, we can change a, b, c, and d but boy e is going to be difficult. 

So I think you know, I know people have different feelings on grants, there are foundations out there who are interested in work place development and that might be a way to get some seed money to pay staff to give you the time to get things started. 

Now you are going to have to be working with VR because they need to be your very significant customer in this service. 

The services could also be bought by school districts. 

Sometimes the service is bought privately from us from a family in a rare case who really thinks their young adult maybe should try this, maybe things did not go well with OVR or the parents just want some exploration. 

But I just wanted to say that it did not just happen you know, we developed a grant with many deliverables. 

We have to stick to those who were trying to hire staff, I did not even know if we had enough staff in the grant to make things work and I learned really quickly it would have been great if we had a few more staff in there but, at least a weekly team meeting if not more often to make sure are we on goal, are we doing what we need to do. 

I just wanted to say that we make it sound like it just, boom, fell out of heaven and there was this program, but there was much blood sweat and tears involved in it. 

But I have a great team, I call my brain trust, my director team, they are just the best. 

RICK WALTERS: I am Rick, I am the district administrator of VR, local VR program in Pennsylvania and I just wanted to say that we developed letters of understanding with lots of organizations who want to provide the type of services that we are requesting for our customers to make them job ready and become employed. 

So not long ago, this was not a CIL, but an organization that does group home work with individuals wanted to become active in a vocational program and wanted to follow our procedures for job coaching which is in Pennsylvania, it is community based work assessment which you have been hearing and performance based job coaching. 

And so they approached me, locally, and I talked to them about the process to become a provider for us. 

I talked to them about the letter of understanding, and in Pennsylvania we have a spreadsheet package that kind of breaks out the narrative of the agreement which states what our provider will do for our customers and what the provider can expect from OVR as a partnership in helping this person become employed. 

But the other half of this spreadsheet is also all of the budgetary information and that speaks to how the program is run. 

And we have a contract and grants division in our central office in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and they can speak directly to folks like the incredible Cara here about how to complete this monster of, really it is pretty much of a monster of a spreadsheet, but it is doable, especially with help from our specialists in central office. 

Now I don't know what other states have or what they don't have, but I am sure they need to enter into agreements and I am sure they have a good idea of what the process needs to be for them to be able to take taxpayer money and pay good folks like Joe to do the good work that they do. 

So and that just occurred a couple of months ago and that program itself, it started with just 2 people. 

It was, they did have some financial support from their parent company, but there was the director who wrote the proposal basically and they hired one job coach and started from there. 

I gave them the opportunity to give it a shot and they are still in business and as far as I can tell they are doing fairly good work for us and our customers and the proof will be in the pudding if more customers want to go there because they have seen people be successful then that program will grow and we will be really happy because in that part of our territory we needed someone there and someone just stepped up. 

So if you see a need and you think you can fill that need, then talk to the local OVR person because they may have, they may agree that there is a need there for customers who want to become employed and you may be the perfect answer for that. 

So talk to them. 

PAULA MCELWEE: You heard him describe a specific process for a specific state. 

Your state has a specific process. 

You may not know what it is yet, but you go to the right people and they will tell you what that process is. 

They already have a process for you to be vendorized and you need to know their process and follow their process. 

And he just did a great job of describing that process. 

RICK WALTERS: Yeah, and I think it was the Granite State folks talked about RAMs, they have Regional Area Managers and they call them RAMs, I am glad I am not called a RAM because I see butting heads, which is not what we are about in OVR at all. 

But those are the ones that you want to seek out, the local management knows what is going in their own territory cause each one is different, each one is unique and special and they have the best knowledge in terms of what the VR program needs for their customers and that is where I think would be the best place to start and it can start with a phone call. 

JOE MICHENER: I just wanted to reinforce kind of what Amy was saying, it really, the program did not just fall out of heaven and begin. 

We started the program with very significant competition in our area. 

We had 3 very well established agencies that are still there and have been doing it for 20 / 30 years when we started up our program. 

So being the new kid on the block was definitely a challenge, it is still a challenge 3 years in. 

Developing relationships with employers and keeping the program viable and successful all the way through. 

So it is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears even today. 

RICK WALTERS: if I might, what they offered to us was the skills program, was the 8 week group addition to community based work assessment and performance based job coaching. 

That is key, and that is where they were able to throw in a lot of soft skill work in a vocational type environment, because you may remember Joe saying that it is a work environment for those 3 days a week that our customers are there and they punch a clock and they are getting, so it is very much vocationally based, but they are also getting the soft skills that are often considered pre-vocational and may cause a problem with the local VR. 

So that, and that is what really lit this up for me and made me realize that especially for young adults who are out of school and unemployed with significant disabilities we really needed that addition. 

And that was a beautiful piece that they came up with that no one else was doing. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: You said the program did not just fall out of heaven, how long from the time you started until now, how many years, how many months, how long have you guys been doing this? JOE MICHENER: We had just passed the 3 ½ year mark. 

It started, we had 9 months in the grant period before we had to get to the point where we were ready to go fee for service. 

So the first nine months felt like a couple of weeks. 

We have now been fee for service for a little under 3 years at this point. 

AMY BECK: I would definitely throw in that it made a big difference in our program that we were able to hire Joe. 

Joe had been working in supported employment in another program and that made a really big difference, without his know-how, we had all that we knew from all the programming stuff had been doing in the S2L program, that is how we knew that we wanted to develop the skills class. 

We knew how those soft skills were changing lives of the young adults in S2L. 

But I can't emphasize enough to you to take your time and hire the right people within your organization, bring people who have those strengths. 

I actually stalked Joe for several weeks. 

He was not responding to me. 

I did not know that, and I kept saying this is a man who had an excellent interview who is very qualified and you know Joe said to me, I think I am going to turn it down because I am not sure it has enough growth in there for me, enough leadership opportunity. 

And I said let me go back and think about how I can change this. 

So I changed the position before he came to give him what he was seeking because I knew we needed his background and he knew lots of players in the community where people could do work assessments where people had been hired and he had not worked only with people with disabilities, but with people with many commonalities. 

So I just wanted to lift that up. 

Are there other questions before we answer a few others that you asked? Next question was about how do we keep parent involvement in our S2L and Career Path programs and how important that is. 

I thought I would let Seth start. 

SETH HODEREWSKI: Hi there. 

As far as our parent involvement we see that as a really important piece of what is going on from the transitional world to. 

Like we say, our young adults are transitioning, our parents are also transitioning so they need that information, that support, that peer support. 

We have regular parents meetings where the parents get together, they talk, they say whatever they need to say, they learn from each other. 

That has been one of the most powerful pieces, especially for a group that is cross disability to learn from each other to grow out of that. 

To try different aspects based on their experiences. 

That I would have to say for the parents is, has been very very powerful. 

Now there is a very clear distinction between the S2L group and the parents group. 

The S2L young adults don't want, they get dropped off, that is their group, they don't want the parents to have anything to do with their group. 

And that is important to them. 

But it is also very important that the parents have their group, they have each other. 

They have done things from, that peer support to working on different things, like big fund raising events to letter writing campaigns, to different things like that. 

So the parents piece very very important as the young adult is moving forward and I know Joe will have a little bit more to say around the parents and their piece when it comes to Career Path, but it is very important for our young adults. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Can you give a little information about the big fund raising events? Like the most successful ones you would recommend, that kind of thing. 

SETH HODEREWSKI: yes, our parents just did a great, they called the S2L the Gala, which they brought in a number of students, or schools, some choirs to sing and they got sponsors and there were baskets and that whole type of thing. 

I am sorry, yeah, we had a silent auction through that too. 

They raised probably close to $20,000 doing that type of thing, there were about 200 people that came to that. 

They want to do it again, so they are in process, putting it all together, so that alone was really great. 

We have done some smaller ones too from like I talked about the Applebees thing we raised about sometimes up to $1,000 a little bit more doing that. 

We have had some other real unique opportunities, where like a motorcycle club came to us and wanted to help raise funds for our group. 

You know, so there are lots of different angles that we try, we try to be creative, we try things out to see what works, what does not work. 

We try to make them fun, that is real important. 

Trying to get the young adults invested in on that too. 

We have done the lottery calendar, that kind of thing. 

We probably made about $3,000 doing the lottery calendar but that is something that the young adults were invested in that. 

They want to do that. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: What is a lottery calendar? SETH HODEREWSKI: it is based on the evening 3 day digit that pops up out of, you know, I am sure they do that here, the daily number and there is gift cards associated with each day and if your number pops up you get that gift card. 

And so it costs like $5.00 for that. 

We actually got the gift cards donated to us and there was, like on the bigger days, like if it was Mothers Day maybe we had an iPad for Mothers Day. 

We just made so much out of doing that, like, it really was good. 

We actually to, like for that, so if the lottery calendar cost $5.00 we gave the young adults $2.50 back to help offset the costs to the program. 

So we are trying to constantly give back to them and make it something where they are learning some skills doing all this kind of thing by selling that, those calendars. 

But, you know, we are helping to keep the cost down too. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Is your program school based? Do you start out in the school? Are your clients referred through school? Or they can walk in to your establishment and also my other question is, I notice that you have a phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. 

Who determines or is it a level as they complete each level they go, cause I see that it says participants may not take part in all phases. 

So is there a criteria for that? SETH HODEREWSKI: Well with, the phases is more of the Career Path program, like we have 3 distinct transition programs, our S2L group, the Real World Lehigh Valley, and the summer program and the Career Path program. 

So the phases comes when it comes to the job coaching and that type of thing, and Joe can talk a little bit more about phases and that type of thing. 

But as far as the young adults and finding them for each of the groups, those come from different places too. 

For the Career Path program that tends to be more referrals for from OVR. 

For things like the S2L group for our summer program, that is constant outreach. 

We are going into schools with different presentations with the young adults to talk about our programming and independent living and what things are going to look like once school is done. 

So we are constantly reaching out. 

Our young adults have been our biggest advertising when it comes to that because, and our parents. 

They see that it is working for them, they like it, so they go tell their friends and other young adults in their classes. 

And that has been a very, we actually, because of one specific young adult we actually decreased our advertising budget because he was out hitting the pavement talking to other people about what we were doing. 

And it ended up being very attractive to people. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Nice try. I am sorry. 

Is there an assessment or criteria or everyone gets to participate? SETH HODEREWSKI: For our Career Path program, again, they have to be a VR customer. 

For our S2L group and for our Real World Lehigh Valley summer program, we do an application process and we also do an interview process. 

Now those tend to be more of a get to know you type of thing. 

We want to start off just like its, once you are done with school it all comes down to filling out applications and doing all that. 

It is not like school where you are entitled. 

So we wanted to start that kind of thinking that kind of process right away. 

So although the application is basic information, the interview is more get to know you type of thing, it ends up being, do you think that you will fit in the program? So once we do the interview with the young adults, we will bring them in to have them try a couple of the S2L programs, the activities that we do to see if they like it. 

It has got to be a right fit for them, you know, to see if that works. 

And once that works then we start talking about fees and that type of thing. 

So it really has to work for people. 

SETH HODEREWSKI: Just to kind of talk about those same things for Career Path, we do have one criteria for Career Path, it is motivation. 

And that is our main criteria. 

With that said, as you are looking at that handout that has the different phases on it, as a participant goes through the Career Path program which is primarily funded by VR, okay, may get to the point where it is determined that VR support is not necessarily the best avenue for that person. 

Perhaps they need more intensive service, perhaps they need less intensive. 

You know, I am sure Rick is going to speak about this later in the day, provides a lot of in-house services. 

And our services, being kind of the middle road, as far as intensity, might not be needed for that person. 

Or wanted, okay. 

So that is where that kind of discussion about eligibility and things like that, there is not necessarily a criteria. 

If VR support is not enough for a person, or you know, they want more intensive services, we are helping them find the right funding source, the right whatever the case may be to get the service that they want and need. 

I don't know if that answers. 

CARA STEIDEL: Oh this goes back just to the fund raising, I just wanted to make everybody aware that a lot of things we are talking about today we will talk about tomorrow in developing a rate. 

But one, when you are thinking about fundraising, we really are I would say, in the infant stages of developing our fundraising and its success and what that fundraising can be. 

But when you determine your rate you really do, you want that rate to cover all your costs. 

And that the fundraising is really a supplement to your program and it allows you to do things that maybe you would not be allowed to do otherwise. 

But when determining that rate you don't want to say well we are going to assume that we are going to earn $100,000 on this fundraiser so we can lower our rate. 

You do not want to do that, you want to make sure that rate is covering all your true costs and when you do earn that $100,000 imagine what else you can do with that program. 

Maybe you can start a program with that fundraising. 

But don't have that as an assumption that it should not supplement, it should not be required to fundraise to have this program on a long term basis. 

SETH HODEREWSKI: Spoken like a true fiscal person. 

But we were also, Cara and I were also discussing, there was a lot of conversation about grants and fee for service and why can't you do both? For us the answer is absolutely do both. 

We started our Career Path program with a grant. 

We moved it into fee for service. 

We still pursue grants to add additional things to our Career Path program. 

So it is a nonstop process of diversifying our funding for every program we have to make them better. 

RICK WALTERS: The VR point of view again, sorry about that. 

I just wanted to say that Amy and I long before Career Path was a reality, we talked about, can we make this grant a fee for service. 

We want to create something new that is good for customers and we want to know that we will be able to carry that through after the grant ends. 

And so, I know they have put a lot of thought into that as well as I did, again one of the reasons why I was very much behind them receiving this grant so we could move forward because I felt confident we would be able to carry it through with fee for service. 

So, just again, the VR point of view. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Can you speak a little bit about the grants? What grants? Are there grants that we need to know about that we don't know about, you know that type of thing? SETH HODEREWSKI: there are so many out there and where we have been really successful with getting grants to supplement what we are doing through our fee for service programs. 

It is actually through private corporations in a lot of cases, you know. 

We got a significant grant from Hi-Mark that was a year-long grant and a significant amount of money that, oh Hi-Mark, everybody know who Hi-Mark is? It is part of Blue Cross and Blue Shield, right. 

Okay, good. 

But that helped us significantly supplement, and it was so appealing to them, when these large corporations want to do community stuff they want to see some results like people getting jobs and things like that. 

So that was the focus of our grant was to supplement our job development for our Career Path participants and being able to just go out and contact as many employers as we could to talk about our program and it was just, it was huge for us. 

Especially being a new program, I think by the end we had established significant contacts with over 300 employers in the area because we literally had like 30 hours a week to go out and just talk to employers. 

AMY BECK: I just wanted to add to that, because in Pennsylvania Act 139 governs us as a center for independent living and in that Act it is very similar to what is written in 704 but we are required to seek other funding for our services. 

Seek diversified funding and so we have always had a staff member whose role was to be a grant writer. 

Now that person has often worn many hats. 

Maybe they are also running some of our activities, directing volunteers, but that is very significant to have someone who is skilled at the maze of writing a grant. 

Now that person should not work by themselves in a bubble. 

They need to be actively engaged with you and you as leaders in your organization, you may have responsibility for writing grants, I certainly have done my share over the years. 

But, there are email list-servs and groups you can buy. 

You will get advertisements for national non-profit grant opportunity books. 

We have used different list-servs, some government ones are free. 

You can do a little Googling, get in on a list-serv for government grants, now, you gonna get a lot of emails doing that, but some of them have, we have occasionally applied for some federal grants that were really a rigorous workout to do. 

We were not usually successful, we have not given up on those. 

But I also wanted to say that one of the great things about when you apply for grants, you have to cast your net widely. 

That is one of the things I do think. 

I knew I had some catch phrases, I don't have that thing about we are all alone together, but. 

Together we are really better, is how I look at LVCIL, but, you know we have to keep casting that net. 

So we are going to apply for a grant, we really think we are going to get it, we don't get it. 

But that is going to make us better and stronger, we have already developed the program, we already have given it the thought. 

I know when we started the original S2L program that we got the grant for in 2008, led us to starting all our transition services, we had applied a year and a half before to do that, and we were turned down. 

And I will tell you why, now that was through the Developmental Disabilities Council, you all want to look for your states Developmental Disabilities Council, they all have the responsibility to help meet federal markers about services for people with developmental disabilities. 

And I believe that most of them are involved in projects in their state. 

Someone else would have to tell me about that, but when we did that process, you know that is a large board-the Developmental Disabilities Council-and a staff that helps keep that going. 

They actually are a rare group that will give you feedback if your grant is not picked. 

You always want to ask for feedback if your grant is not picked. 

And most places will not, but the Developmental Disabilities Council they did a debriefing with me and the wonderful project officer, Kathy Goss, Amy, I loved your proposal, we loved your proposal, but there is one thing in there, when you talked about what now we call Real World Lehigh Valley that intensive summer part. 

We called it a summer camp. 

And there was someone on the volunteer committee picking the grants who thought that was a slap in the face, like Jerry's Kids, you know, poor kids with disabilities going off to camp. 

They had been adversely affected by that term when they were growing up, so our whole grant was kicked to the curb. 

So she said just rework this, tweak these few things, this is going to be coming out in another request for proposals so we took heart, we did not have to call and get that feedback, but that is a golden opportunity to find out how you can improve your processes. 

So I encourage you to look widely, you may have community foundations in your area. 

But that is like a collective place where money has come together and they set priorities in the community. 

But I just wanted to say what Cara was saying, that fundraising is different than grant writing. 

Grant writing can help you start a program, develop an idea, maybe do some capital things for your organization or help with staffing. 

Grants have all different kinds of rules, try to find out what has been funded by the funders previously. 

What has the grant funded in the past? Oh they really like programs for young adults and work, hey we are going to go for them. 

Anything you can do, as far as do you have a board member who knows anyone. 

All of those connections, but, it is true, grants are not the same as doing the fundraiser, doing the Applebees, that is very different. 

Okay, I know we are down to 5 minutes. 

What other questions do you have for us? Are there any questions from yesterday on the sheet with the stars that we did not talk about? AUDIENCE MEMBER: How many participants do you serve in each program and how do kind of figure out how many you are going to serve? SETH HODEREWSKI: I speak, I guess, for all 3 of the programs, S2L currently has 35 young adults, the Career Path program is currently serving 125 young adults, and the Life program is, well this past school year was serving 10 students and 3 throughout the summer. 

Just keep them coming, that is our philosophy. 

No, I mean as a fee for service program that is the beauty of a fee for service program as you are growing you bring on more staff. 

As they said yesterday, we started with 3 staff we now have 9 in the Career Path program alone. 

So as we have grown with our referrals and those we are serving we have grown the staff to keep up with that need. 

Obviously you have to be careful. 

You have to be careful not to go too far and then if things slow down then you certainly don't want to be in the position where you have to lay people off. 

It is constant anxiety, but, so far so good. 

CARA STEIDEL: That is why it is so critical to develop that correct rate in the very beginning because it allows you to grow when you have that capability to grow and have that opportunity to grow and then also it allows you to recover from maybe a slow period of time. 

If you have done that planning correctly when you are developing your rate it is going to allow for that beginning part where it is so unknown what is going to happen. 

And as you grow you have that capability and capacity to continue to offer services because you are allowed to, you can hire somebody that rate is the correct rate which allows you to do what that program is able to do. 

SETH HODEREWSKI: And I was going to say about flexibility of staff is the other main key component for us. 

We had a staff person that was with us years ago, that started off in our summer program, we ended up hiring her and she is now our coordinator. 

We have other staff that kind of work in both programs a little bit so they can kind of go back and forth a little bit and work, work together you know. 

So our staff is flexible and that has really helped us in a lot of what we have done. 

CARA STEIDEL: I know we talked about rates and this goes back to your question quite awhile ago. 

Our rate for every program is not the same. 

Every program has its unique rates because every program is unique. 

We have 3 tiered rate correct? In the Career Path program so it is really unique, you really get into the detail when establishing a rate. 

JOE MICHENER: A just to reinforce what Seth was saying, you know, particularly with the summer program, the Real World Lehigh Valley, the main staff person who coordinates everything for that, well what is she doing the rest of the year? When it is not the summer program Well there is plenty of other work that she does in the Career Path program or the LIFE program so there is flexibility within the programs as well because they are very similar service types. 

AMY BECK: I just want to add that I, we were so fortunate that we had started developing the Career Path program and that was running. 

We had staff in there who had skills to work with young adults on many issues. 

And so when we started getting those calls from the school districts, you know Seth can tell you that I started saying we need Plan A, we need Plan B, and we need Plan C. 

Because if a young adult is coming to you, lets say they are coming to you every day of the school year for 2 hours to work on IL skills and if that primary staff person got sick and the other staff person has to run out because they are backing someone else up, you have got to figure out how you are going to do that because your obligation to your funder does not stop based on what is happening with your staff. 

We always talk about honoring our funders. 

We are going to be there. 

We are going to have staff with the qualifications that we promised and the skills, they are going to be doing this. 

And I also just wanted to add in there, I think one of things that where I talked yesterday about hiring people who have education experience, life experience with disability. 

But you know we have to, Joe demands a very high quality written product from his staff. 

He painstakingly goes through every of dozens of reports that are written for each consumer, so we have to bring people in who are able, have decent writing skills. 

I mean he works, get the red marks back on your papers from Joe. 

He occasionally does in services at staff meetings on correct use of language and giving examples in reports but we are always striving to make it better because we want, we are so committed we want our funder, in this case VR to see us as someone who is taking this seriously and giving it 100 per cent every day. 

I feel like a tyrant, I am really not. 

But it feels that way. 

You know we want the best for people with disabilities. 

Don't say we don't do that. 

RICK WALTERS: They do it very well and they do it probably better than any of our other providers for job coaching at this point in time. 

Clearly, I think that is the reason they have gone from 25 to one of the reasons, they have gone from 25 to 125 OVR customers is because our very good voc rehab counselors understand the value of those reports that they get and are very appreciative of professional well done reports that they can utilize to help their customer further. 

I also wanted to say that their summer program, OVR is not involved with their summer program and it is not just vocational. 

But there is a vocational piece to it, so I have my eye on that because I would like to maybe some day find a way to contribute to the cost of those services so that our OVR customers can take part in that. 

Thank you.