ROUGHLY EDITED COPY
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A National Onsite Two‑in‑One Training Opportunity
CIL‑NET Training
Assisting Individuals to Find Affordable, 
Accessible, Integrated Housing
Renaissance Chicago Downtown Hotel
One West Wacker Drive 
Chicago, Illinois
Tuesday, August 7, 2012
8:50 a.m. ‑ 4:45 p.m.

 

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This text is being provided in a rough draft format.  Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.   
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>> ANN DENTON:  So what I would like to do is I would like to have sort of a facilitated discussion right now about choice, right now.  So I'm going to ask you some questions.  We're going to talk about it.  And then what I want you to do is pick up the tool in the what do I want in a new place, and I'm going to ask you to role play it.  But I don't want to leave ‑‑ we started to have a discussion between the balance between hope and realism earlier this morning, and I don't want to leave today without discussing that, because we're really not going to come back to it in the same way.
And so let me ask you this question:  If you're in ‑‑ let's say Kay is in a place where on her SSI check, and I haven't told you that yet.  But she's on SSI, okay?  On her SSI check, she can't live ‑‑ she can't afford to live in an apartment.  So Pat, I'm going to pick on, I know you looked up fair market rents.  So tell me the fair market rent sort of the medium level.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Oh, boy.
>> ANN DENTON:  Community.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Well, medium actually out of the ones I looked at would be Chicago.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  And what's the fair market rent for a one bedroom unit in Chicago?
>> PAT TUCKER:  $853.
>> ANN DENTON:  And how much is SSI?  761?  630, I thought.  Huh? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  State supplement.
>> ANN DENTON:  Let's say no state supplement.  761, that's good enough.  So in Chicago, if a one bedroom unit is $800 and my entire check is 761, that's the problem, right? 
>> PAT TUCKER:  Yeah.
>> ANN DENTON:  So how do you support choice in that environment?
>> PAT TUCKER:  She needs to move to Jefferson City, Montana. 
(Laughter.)
>> ANN DENTON:  Or Odessa, Texas.
>> PAT TUCKER:  The prices there, the fair market rent is a lot cheaper in Jefferson City, Montana.
>> ANN DENTON:  I saw a hand over here. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  You look for subsidized housing.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes, so one of the ways that you support choice, you know, we do a lot of emphasis on choice and active listening with people, and sometimes that gets misinterpreted as we're going to do whatever they want.  Well, we are going to support their choice, but part of our job is to provide information about those choices, and so one of the pieces of information that the housing specialist brings is the knowledge about subsidized housing.
So we talked about this earlier, but having that housing resource map for your community and knowing where things are is a way that you can then turn to people and educate Kay about what is available in your community and help her understand what the different details are.  Yes. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hopefully, this will be inspirational, but in my area in New York I have individuals on SSI who have applied for subsidized housing, HUD, and anywhere between six and nine months have been in their own apartment with the subsidized housing.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes.  Did you hear that?  Six to nine months in New York.  Right.  I know, I know.
We did we talk about this earlier, or did I talk about it with somebody at table?  Why would you put somebody on a waiting list that's ten years long?  We talked about that. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Because you never know.
>> ANN DENTON:  You never know.  You never know.  And when the vouchers came out last year, housing authorities were required to go through their existing lists looking for people with disabilities to use up those vouchers before they went to people who were not already on their existing list.  So you would miss and opportunity.  If Kay is not on the list, she misses it.  Troy. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I have an issue.  They had no kind of method of knowing who was disabled and receiving their voucher.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And that was a problem.  Because they had been through, one, two, three (inaudible) ‑‑
>> ANN DENTON:  So changes in leadership. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  It really (inaudible) ‑‑ 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  You have to be sure that everyone has equal access, even for those who are not living there.  And the way to do that is, the way to compensate for that, is trying to put those in the agency.  You know, you would be surprised if you go and find out who ‑‑ you would be surprised.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes, the NED vouchers.  You gave us a lot in all that.  I will try to summarize.
But the NED vouchers were, I think, despite that knew they were coming for a year, I think they were surprised in the field, and I think as a result, the implementation of that has been different in different places.  How is that?  Is that polite enough?
You all know what I mean, right?  Some of the places it hasn't worked at all.  Some places, they have done fine.
Okay.  I want to do is I just wanted to talk through some of the ways ‑‑ some of the reasons that we support choice.  Part of the reason that we take in the information so carefully about what it is that people would like to have in their new living arrangement is because our systems don't do that, and we have to be different.  So ‑‑ and then asking so many detailed questions, you know, you can pretend that you're on home and garden TV.  Somebody said that over here this morning.  And working with ‑‑ you know, working as a Realtor with the more than who ‑‑ and you're looking at things like:  Do you want a fireplace, right?  Do you want to live on this bus route?  Do you want a dog?  My favorite question.
So supporting the notion that these choices can be made even in a restricted resources environment is extremely important, because not only is it about choice, but it's about validating the person as an adult that makes choices.
>> PAT TUCKER:  And I was having this conversation I think in the bathroom, that even if the choices are restricted, it comes off better if you're pointing ‑‑ if you're just letting the person come to their own conclusion.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes.
>> PAT TUCKER:  As opposed to you saying, your choices are restricted, you can only do these things, I'm going to take it much better, because if I look at the realities, like I was looking at New York City.  In New York City, the fair market rent for an efficiency or a studio apartment is $1,183.  I can't afford that.  So when I'm looking at that and I'm looking at how much my check is a month, my reality is going to be, I can't afford that without a subsidy, and if I can't get a subsidy, I can't live in New York City.
>> ANN DENTON:  Right.  Yes.
>> PAT TUCKER:  And it's my choice.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes.  And I would say, part of the education, part of your expertise or your staff's expertise as housing specialists is the handout on page 74.  I think which ‑‑ yeah, page 74, which is different types of housing.  So if you look at this, you know, this is the kind ‑‑ this is an example of the things that you know that Kay may not know.  Okay?  So different types of housing.  And what you say, you know, you share information Kay says, you're going to ask, where does she want to live?  She's going to say I want to live in my own apartment, because that's what Kay's scenario says.  When she can do that, that's her preferred setting.
Okay.  And let's say she's in New York City, and she makes $630 a month ‑‑ or ‑‑ or 760 a month.  Plus I think New York has a living supplement, do they?  I don't know how much it is, but I'm sure it's still under $1,100 a month.  Yeah.  
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Inaudible.)
>> ANN DENTON:  It's what?  $30?  It's $30? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yeah.
(Laughter.)
>> ANN DENTON:  Let me do that again.  It's $30?  Oh, my God.  Okay.  They might as well not give it.  It's almost insulting.  $16 in food stamps.  Yes. 
So what the housing specialist brings to this assessment that you're going to do with Kay, what you bring is you're going to listen very carefully without a preconceived to what Kay is saying about where she wants to live.  So you do not ‑‑ we do not ‑‑ good housing specialists do not make judgments prior to hearing what people say.  However ‑‑ and so that's your more ‑‑ you're more the recipient of information at that point.
But that doesn't mean you're a passive participant.  You bring the expertise of things like in this handout, so that when Kay says, oh, my, I only make $790 a month and the rent is 1100, I guess I'm stuck here forever, I'll never move, right?  You say, well, let me give you some information about types of housing that we might explore.  So the housing specialist, you're the expert on this, or your staff is the expert on this.  This is what you bring to the conversation.  It's really hard to do that, to share your expertise without overpowering the person, and so what you're doing is you're making a lot of statements that are active listening.  How many people have had training in active listening for motivational interviewing, or something like that?
(Showing of hands.)
>> ANN DENTON:  And is it easy?
>> PAT TUCKER:  No.
>> ANN DENTON:  It's easy for you.  She's going, yeah, yeah it's easy.  I find it to be ‑‑ active listening, I find the key word there to be activity.  It takes a extreme amount of focus and energy and, you know, paying attention, paying extreme attention to what people are saying.  Listening for what they're actually saying, not where my brain wants to go.  My brain is, I'm sure you want a dog, because I'm putting my preconceptions on her, right?
>> PAT TUCKER:  What if Kay doesn't know what she wants?
>> ANN DENTON:  And then you go back to those conversation starters that we reviewed right before the break, which is when were you most happy?  Where was the place that you lived that suited you the best?  If you could only change one thing in this situation, what would that one thing be?  You know, I'm hearing you say you're not sure you want to move.  Cool.  That's cool.  I'm good.  But if there was one thing you could change.  Just sort of work ‑‑ you know, wiggling around it, so that you actually ‑‑ the most important thing that you are doing is creating a relationship with Kay.
>> PAT TUCKER:  What if Kay wants a place that's in an unsafe neighborhood?
>> ANN DENTON:  You present the information and talk about, you know ‑‑ talk about making choices.  I mean, if I'm Kay, and my only choice that I can afford, that doesn't have a roommate, because you know, I just don't get along with people.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Unless it's a dog.
>> ANN DENTON:  Unless it's a dog.  I don't want a roommate, so I'm willing to sacrifice, you know, the neighborhood, quality of the neighborhood or the crime rate in the neighborhood, in order to be able to live on my own.  But I have to ‑‑ Kay ‑‑ part of my job as a housing specialist is to help Kay understand what all those things are. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I was going to say sometimes we perceive a neighborhood not to be safe because of a community that's there.
>> ANN DENTON:  Right. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  When someone might feel like I'll blend better and I'll feel safer there. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes.  Right.  What we bring ‑‑ we have to ‑‑ part of active listening, part of what I find difficult about active listening is that I have to be in a space that's completely outside of my personal context, and so I cannot be listening through my own filters.  If I'm going to do it right, I have to be listening to what she's actually saying, not, you know ‑‑ I might leap to a conclusion that Kay doesn't want to live in a neighborhood that looks dangerous.  I don't know that.
Okay.  What other constraints are there on that we need to discuss before we move into this?  Because what I don't want to hear is, I don't want to come up behind a group and hear somebody saying, well, you know, you know Kim, I'm standing right over you, you know, Kim, with my mommy finger out, you know.  I don't think anybody in this group would do that.  You know, Kim you really can't afford that.  So I don't think you should make that choice.  I mean, nobody is going to say that, but I don't want to hear it.  The purpose of this exercise is to step back and really, really try to listen.  So the people who are playing Kay, feel free to go beyond the boundaries of the scenario.  So if you get asked a question that's not scenario, make up an answer.  And for the housing specialists, I want you to draw on your knowledge of your own community.  So no matter where the scenario, or where we think Kay is or where Kay thinks, you know, Kay might be thinking New York City.  The housing specialist should be drawing on their knowledge of their community that they come from today, so that you're giving her reality based answers without your community.  And then the observers I really want you to look for any instances where Kay, you know, talked about a preference that seemed to you to be overwhelmingly important to her and that didn't get carried forward.  So places where people have been not listening.
I also want the observers to note where the interaction is going extremely well, and the relationship is between partners.  It's not between an expert and a person who doesn't have knowledge.  It's between partners.
So what I would like you to do in terms of the role play is you'll notice that this form has nine sections to it.  Some of the sections are bigger than others.  So I would like to get tables to sort of distribute around the sections.  I only want you to do one, or in the case of the little sections, maybe two.  So if you want to ask about U‑necessity, choice of living arrangement, that may fill the whole time.  If, on the other hand, you are going to talk ‑‑ and if you want to talk about substance abuse, even though those are just a small section, that may take your whole time. 
So I'm going to do it ‑‑ I'm going to let you talk about it for about half a minute and then I'm going to check and make sure that there's a variety of sections being addressed.
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Are we talking about form 4B?
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes, we're talking about form 4B.  It's right behind where we were in the book.  
I would suggest you not be the same people as earlier, but I don't want to interfere with each table's choice.  Did you all hear that?
There's no requirement ‑‑ 
>> PAT TUCKER:  Hello.
>> ANN DENTON:  Oh, yeah, there we go.  There's no requirement that the person who played Kay last time has to play Kay again.  Actually I would suggest that you give everybody at your table a chance to role play.  So maybe observers want to be the actors this time and vice versa.
However, you can do whatever you want.  We're about choice here. 
(Working in groups.) 
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  I'm going to ask a question.  How many tables are finished with their identified sections?
Two, three, four, five.  Okay.
You have two more minutes.  The tables that aren't finished, you can have two more minutes.  Then we're going to talk about it.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  People who are listening, you know what to do.
(Light applause.)
>> ANN DENTON:  No one listening?
So what we're going to do for the next few minutes is you're going to ‑‑ I'm going to do the feedback section by section, so like for living arrangements, I'm going to write things up on the board.  What we're building is a map of Kay's preferences around her living situation, so the choices that she would make.  And so what I want to hear, like when I do living arrangements, what I want to hear from the tables who did living arrangements is what are the critical nonnegotiable elements that Kay identified?
Okay.  That's really what we want to know, what is nonnegotiable.  And pat made a joke about me, Starbucks is not negotiable. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  What section were we supposed to do?
>> ANN DENTON:  Pardon? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  What section were we supposed to do?
>> ANN DENTON:  I don't know.  What section did you choose to do? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  All right. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We thought you assigned them.
>> ANN DENTON:  So I'm going to go in order of the form, and where there are ‑‑ where there are conflicts in what the Kays at the various tables decided, you all are going to figure that out right now here in public.  We're going to make a decision.  Because what I want to know is we're building a picture of Kay's preferences and choices.  Which tables did living arrangements?  How many did we have?  One tables, two, tables, three four.  Four tables ‑‑ five.
So give me an example of a nonnegotiable, critical choice. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  The bathroom arrangements.  She wanted her own private bathroom.
>> ANN DENTON:  So private bath.
>> PAT TUCKER:  I thought she needed a bathroom. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes, that wasn't a negotiable item.  There has to be a bathroom. 
>> ANN DENTON:  What else?  What's another one? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Dishwasher.
>> ANN DENTON:  Dishwasher.  Okay.  Dishwasher.  What else?  Under living arrangements ‑‑ living skills.  Look at that.  Living arrangements. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Our Kay wanted her own (inaudible).
>> ANN DENTON:  So no roommate.  Was there any difference, any of the other tables?  Any scenario in which Kay wanted a roommate, any table?  Yes.
>> Can we please ‑‑ yeah, thank you. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Our Kay said that due to the past experience with the caregiver, that it would be good to have a backup caregiver that lived with her.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  So she wanted a live‑in ‑‑ a live‑in caregiver is that what we're saying. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  More like somebody who would be willing to stand in or fill in. 
>> ANN DENTON:  So a fill in caregiver.  So that there was an extra layer of ‑‑ so the roommate would be the emergency sort of backup. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Right.
>> ANN DENTON:  So she did want a roommate who could serve as emergency backup.  That was part of her reason.
All right. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I have a question.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: I was asking, are we talking subsidized housing here, because HUD doesn't allow rotating caregivers in subsidized housing.
>> ANN DENTON:  That is something that the housing specialist would bring to the conversation, and we're going to do the cost and assistance worksheet this afternoon. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Today?
>> ANN DENTON:  We're going to do it today. 
So that's one of the things that might come out of that conversation.  Really kind of what we're doing when we do this initial worksheet, that's just really more about the hopes and dreams side.  So the hope and then the realism is going to come when we do the cost of assistance.  So that's what you bring to the conversation as the housing specialist.  If you want a roommate, if you're going to do subsidized housing, these are the only conditions that would work? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  You did say the realization and the cost of it, but it would be very hard to write into a plan to have a live‑in caregiver.  I mean, very hard to authorize ‑‑
(Audience responds.) 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's easy for you to say.
>> ANN DENTON:  Give him a Starbucks. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  It's very difficult to allow that, you know, with the support services that we offer.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  We are.  I'm hurrying.  So what else?  I need you guys to decide.  Roommates or no roommates.  So I need you to vote ‑‑ oh, yes, ma'am.  I'm sorry. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Our Kay wanted an escort service and in the form of a live‑in boy friend.
>> ANN DENTON:  An escort service for what?
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  In the form of a live‑in boyfriend.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Boy, your Kay was a little spicy. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's for sharing expenses. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Trying to help her get over her depression. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Live‑in boyfriend.  Pros and cons there, right?
Okay.  So I was getting you guys to vote about where we had the roommate versus no roommates.  So based on your knowledge of Kay, and a little bit about where we're going, how many ‑‑ and everybody gets one vote, how many people think that we should go with a scenario that she wants a roommate?
(Showing of hands.) 
>> ANN DENTON:  That looks like the majority, but let me test the other side.  How about the scenario with no roommate?
(Showing of hands.)
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  So she's going to want a roommate.  So we're crossing this out.  Okay.  That includes living arrangements unless there was something I missed.
All right.  Next section, which is ‑‑ well, with house mates.  We have addressed that.  So the next section is features.
So who did features?  Who did that section?  Anybody?  
Okay.  This table did features.  This table did features.  Who else?  I have two.
Okay.  Tell me what features she wants. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Dishwasher.
>> ANN DENTON:  Dishwasher is already up there.  All right. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  A roll‑in shower.
>> ANN DENTON:  A roll‑in shower, okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Air conditioning.
>> ANN DENTON:  Roll‑in shower.  Air conditioning.  Anything else? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We did say washer and dryer.
>> ANN DENTON:  Washer and dryer.  Just the hook‑ups or the units? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She wanted to be able to do her laundry.
>> PAT TUCKER:  I'm guessing she needs the machines. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  I'm going to put this right here.
All right.  Anything else about features?
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She needed a large enough bedroom for her medical bed.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  That's good.
>> PAT TUCKER:  I was going to say the microphone.  She says she needs a large enough room to have her medical bed. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  Anything else on features?
All right.  Next section is safety and visitors.  Who did safety and visitors?  One.  Okay.  You're the only ones that did safety and visitors, right?  Unless I missed a hand.  What did Kay want in terms of safety and visitors? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: It's actually critical that she (inaudible).
>> ANN DENTON:  That she have what? 
>> PAT TUCKER:  The microphone.  Her grandson is visiting twice a year. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible.) 
>> ANN DENTON:  So she needs a place where her grandson can visit overnight. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes.  But wasn't that positive about other visitors staying overnight. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> PAT TUCKER:  Wasn't Kay in her 30s? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I just asked the question. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She was 10 when she had her first ‑‑ when she was 20, she became a grandmother. 
>> ANN DENTON:  All right.  Anything else on that one that was a critical need? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  About the (inaudible) guarded entry with intercom system.
>> ANN DENTON:  Guarded entry with intercom system.
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Like a security building.
>> ANN DENTON:  Like a security building or gated community, something that has that kind of security to it. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And the last one was prefer to have the visitors screened, and then Kay said yes, but not really definite on whether she wanted her neighbors' visitors screened.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  So in this absolutely critical nonnegotiable, this question she said, yes, she wants her own visitors screened, but not sure about the others.  Okay.  She wants visitors screened.  Okay. 
All right.  Next section.  That was safety and visitors.  How about neighborhood?  Who did neighborhood?  This table did neighborhood.  Who else did neighborhood?
All right.  So what does Kay want in terms of a neighborhood, her neighborhood?  And for critical, nonnegotiable, critical needs. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Safety was not that important because she was packing a gun.
(Laughter.)
>> ANN DENTON:  I didn't hear that.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Did you hear?  Safety was not that important because she was packing a gun. 
>> ANN DENTON:  All right.  So safety is not critical.  That's fine.  You know, I'm from Texas.  Being able to shoot is a skill.  That's the expectation. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She was not worried about safety.  But she absolutely wanted to be near a library.
>> ANN DENTON:  All right.  Wants to be near a library.  All right.  Okay.  What else?  Anything else that she regarded as nonnegotiable?
Okay.  All right.  And you know, we're getting a picture here because the other table, she had identified that she wanted a place to be safe, i.e., a gated community, so she don't care so much about the neighborhood.  I mean, that actually fits, so it's great.
The next section is personal support needs.  So I'm going to start a new sheet for that.  Who did personal support needs?
Nobody.  Uh‑oh. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We're in trouble if we don't cover that one.
>> ANN DENTON:  Pardon me? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We're in trouble if we don't cover that one.
>> ANN DENTON:  It won't be a real assessment, but let's go on and do the ones that we did, and then I think we can make some guesses, some general guesses about what Kay would consider to be nonnegotiable.  Let's look at it and do personal support needs as a group.  
So personal support needs, some of the Kays, what you would tell me if I was asking you right now what do you need in terms of personal support needs?  Critical, nonnegotiable.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Microphone. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  A daily attendant.
>> ANN DENTON:  Attendant services.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Kay, your voice has gotten kind of deep. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's what I said, you sound like Barry White. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She needed to be turned every two to three hours there.
>> ANN DENTON:  It doesn't say that in the scenario, but that would probably help her bed sores.  She's not supposed to sit up more than a couple of hours. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  It sounds like she has a history of injury or concerns when personal attendant services were not available, and she ‑‑ it looks like she needs assistance with everything involving transfer, so probably toileting and bathing and probably also needs assistance getting meal preparation and having meds and other things brought to her or a way to get to them.
>> ANN DENTON:  Right.  I think that that's ‑‑ so the full array of services including ‑‑ I'm not going to try to write down everything that you said, but toileting, transferring.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Meal preparation.
>> ANN DENTON:  Meal preparation, medication, meals and meds. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hygiene.
>> ANN DENTON:  What? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hygiene.
>> ANN DENTON:  Hygiene. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She's also not going to be able to take care of a yard or do deep housecleaning, if she can't get down on the floor and get things.  So she's also going to have ‑‑ shopping is probably going to be a concern, transportation.  So ADL is quite significant. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Shopping.  Cleaning.
All right.  Any other sort of nonnegotiable person support needs that you would read out of this scenario?
Okay.  Let's talk about pets and service animals.
Who did pets and service animals?  That table.  Who else?  Three, four, okay. 
All right.  Let's start over here.  What are her nonnegotiables? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Our Kay was nonnegotiable about having a three bedroom apartment for she and her seven dogs. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  We write that down.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Only seven. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Seven dogs.  Okay.  Pets and service animals.  All right.
What other table?  Any other nonnegotiable demands? 
>> PAT TUCKER:  We have some over here.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Kay over here wanted a boa.  That was nonnegotiable.
>> ANN DENTON:  A boa. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She just meant one of those things that goes over your shoulders. 
>> ANN DENTON:  I'd say that's fairly easy because it probably wouldn't fall under anybody's pet policy.  So good.  What else? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Most of our Kay's were negotiables.  She would like to ‑‑ she would like to explore the idea of a service animal.  She's not sure how she would use ‑‑ how she would best use a service animal at this point, but she would like to look into it.  If she does get one, she is convinced that she wants a miniature horse.
>> ANN DENTON:  A miniature horse, all right.  So glad that one is in the negotiable category.  But I'm going to put it in brackets, because even if someone says to you they might want to look into that, as you're performing your function around helping them start to look, during the cost and assistance worksheet, you know that there's a possibility that she might need to budget in a pet deposit.  So even though that's not a nonnegotiable based on the interview, something to keep in mind.  Because there's a cost associated.
So possible service animal. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  There's no pet deposit for service animals.
>> ANN DENTON:  You're right, that's right.  Sorry.  Oh, the whole miniature horse thing.  I don't know. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  It's the only thing other than a dog that's allowed.
>> ANN DENTON:  The only other what?
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  It's the only other animal that's allowed other than a dog as a service animal.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  Perfect.  I learned something.  I didn't know that I did not know that.
Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Inaudible.) 
>> ANN DENTON:  Right before Congress discovers it, like food at meetings.
Any other pets and service animals, a couple tables that did that?
All right.  Let's move to the next one.
>> PAT TUCKER:  The next one is alcohol and drug ‑‑ other drugs.
>> ANN DENTON:  Alcohol and other drugs.  Let me get a new piece of paper.
Okay.  Alcohol and other drugs.  Do we have any ‑‑ who did that first of all?
(Showing of hands.)
>> ANN DENTON:  One, two, three.  Okay.  We're going to start ‑‑ was there a middle table here?  That one.  We're going to start in the middle.  Okay.  So alcohol, et cetera. 
All right.  What does Kay want?  What's a nonnegotiable. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  So our Kay doesn't mind alcohol, in fact she likes a drink every now and then, but prefers not to be around illegal drugs.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  So she's tolerant of alcohol and doesn't want to have anything to do with drugs.  Okay.  So tolerant of alcohol, and drinks a bit herself.  Has a drink.  No drugs. 
All right.  Then we're going to go to this table.  What does your Kay say?  She likes heroin.  Let me guess.
(Laughter.)
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Kay said to each their own, it was not critical to her whether she lived in a neighborhood that strongly supported it.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  That was not huge on her nonnegotiable list.  It was not on her nonnegotiable list.  How about this table?
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: She doesn't partake herself, but she would like to (inaudible).
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  So she doesn't want to live in an alcohol and drug free environment.  She wants to live where it's an accepted part of ‑‑ where it's not restricted.  Is it a nonnegotiable then. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  No, I think she would be slightly uncomfortable in an environment that was strict enough to be ‑‑ to ban outright alcohol.
>> ANN DENTON:  Right.  Right.  Okay.  So she wants flexibility.  That sounds like it's important, is the flexibility to choose.  Can I put that down? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes.
>> ANN DENTON:  So the flexibility to choose?  Other comments?  Any other ‑‑ did I skip a table? 
Okay.  Then the last section is activities.  Who did activities?
One, two, three.  Okay.  We'll start with you because you haven't spoken up in a while. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Well, Kay would like to continue to be part of an advocacy group.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  All right.  She wants to participate in other advocacy group. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And she would also like to participate in singing in the choir at church.
>> ANN DENTON:  All right.  Now, she sings as bad as Richard and Pat, oh, no.  I'm thinking of protecting the community from her. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And she wants to be active in going to movies and going fishing.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  Movies and fishing and what else? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And participating in some type of exercise.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  All right.  So movies, fishing.  A girl after my own heart.  Movies, fishing, and an exercise program. 
All right.  Is that it for activities from you guys, or is there more? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Well, in the future, she would like to participate volunteering at a hospital to help children.
>> ANN DENTON:  So she's interested in volunteer work. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes.
>> ANN DENTON:  Hospital volunteer.  Of this list, would you say that any of this is absolutely critical, nonnegotiable, or are these kind of want‑to's rather than I have to have that?  Are they all nonnegotiable? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Nonnegotiables.
>> ANN DENTON:  Nonnegotiable.  All right.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Okay. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  Which other groups did activities?  All right.  One, two ‑‑ we'll do them first and come back to you guys in the middle. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  So our Kay was very critical to having her calendar full of social activities didn't want to sit around watching TV all day.  That was nonnegotiable.  However, the idea of having sponsored activity trips, she could pass on that.  That wasn't very important to her.
>> ANN DENTON:  She doesn't want to go bowling with the group. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I think she wants to pick and choose who she wants to be around.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  So these things, there's nothing inconsistent with what that group discovered about Kay, except that your Kay would add all these things are cool as long as she chooses.  And she's not fond of group activities. 
Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Our Kay also said that the advocacy group was very important, that she wanted to be able to make sure that she could continue in that.  And then it was also important to be able to get to places she wanted to go.  She wasn't too concerned about organized activities, but maybe get down to the coffee shop, or, you know, just various public places that she might want to go.
>> ANN DENTON:  So there's almost a concern there about getting to places that Kay chooses. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Or being, you know, within a reasonable distance to get there on her own.
>> ANN DENTON:  Right, to get there on her own.  Okay.  All right.  And I approve of the choice of the coffee shop option.
Other pieces of activities?  Anybody else do activities that I skipped?
Okay.  So what we have is we have ‑‑ we have a picture that is emerging of Kay's needs and preferences right here.  She clearly wants her own place.  She has real good ideas about what she needs in that place, dishwasher, roll‑in shower, air conditioning, washer drier in the unit, and a large bedroom that would accommodate her medical bed.
She wants to live in a secure community, like a gated apartment complex.  But then that makes her less worried about the neighborhood safety.
She would love to have her visitors screened, because she doesn't want anybody just dropping by, and that's something that can happen in that kind of a setting.
She wants to be near a library.  She wants attendant services, and she's going to want ‑‑ she says she wants the full array of services, right?  Is that what she said, or is that what you assumed?
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  No one asked her that one.
>> ANN DENTON:  No one asked her that one.  But you can tell from the scenario that she's going to have a significant level of need.  So it's okay to assume that.
And then pets and service animals, we had a request for a miniature horse, seven dogs, and a boa constrictor. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Other than that, nothing unusual.
>> ANN DENTON:  Right, other than that that was the play. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I want to see the landlord accept that.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes, I would like to meet the landlord who would take that as well.  What's the only feasible option if those things were nonnegotiable, what's your only feasible choice?
>> PAT TUCKER:  A farm.
>> ANN DENTON:  A what? 
>> PAT TUCKER:  A farm or a zoo.
>> ANN DENTON:  A farm or a zoo.  It's homeownership.  That's the only setting where you're going to have ‑‑
>> PAT TUCKER:  In some settings it's illegal to have seven dogs in a house.  You have to have a different permit for that.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes.
So we're not talking about realism quite yet, but in the next piece, what I want you to do is move to the cost and assistance worksheet.  So take a look at the cost and assistance worksheet.
>> PAT TUCKER:  This is where we have the come to Jesus.  Now all your wishes and hopes are out there.  Now, let's talk reality.
>> ANN DENTON:  This is where we balance ‑‑ this is where we balance hope and realism.  So what I want you to do is let's take ‑‑ I'm not going to put the PowerPoints up.  Or did you? 
>> PAT TUCKER:  We can go back.  Where is she living?
>> ANN DENTON:  She's in a nursing home right now.
>> PAT TUCKER:  I know, but what city?
>> ANN DENTON:  Oh, let's make it something that's reasonable.
>> PAT TUCKER:  We have five cities to choose from.  Chicago, Oklahoma City ‑‑ oh, actually six, New York City, Detroit, Dallas, or Jefferson City, Montana.  Somebody say Chicago? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yeah, it's close.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Does she want a one bedroom or a two bedroom?  Two?  958 is the fair market rent.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  So the 958 ‑‑ okay.  So some of the choices that we have ‑‑ if she has a two bedroom unit ‑‑ 958 is the rent.  What I want you to do ‑‑ first of all, right now I want you to look at the cost and assistance worksheet in your booklets.  And it is on page 103.  And then I want to you look at the monthly personal spending plan, which we're going to do more, work on tomorrow, but to get a sense for ‑‑ for ‑‑ we're trying to build in realism now to what Kay is thinking.  This is where the housing specialist gives information that's going to support choices for Kay.  So, again, we don't deliver the information.  Didn't you know that there was a pet deposit for each one of those seven dogs?  We don't deliver it that way.
But what I would like you to do is using this as your scenario, so the two bedroom unit is $958, and you know what some of the things are she wants a pet.  We'll figure out the details later.  She wants a pet.  And she wants a gated community or guarded community.
So what I would like you to do is going back into your small groups, take, I mean, four minutes, maybe five.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Five minutes.
>> ANN DENTON:  Five minutes.  We have five minutes. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Here, Kay.  Here's some paperwork to fill out.
>> ANN DENTON:  And you're done.  And what I want you to do is start to have that conversation about:  What is actually going to cost to move?  And, Pat, would you tell me, just for comparison sake, what a one bedroom fair market rent is in Chicago and an efficiency if you have it?  
>> PAT TUCKER:  The one bedroom is 853.  The efficiency is 745.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She could do an efficiency and have $16.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Now, if she moved to Detroit she could get in a two bedroom for 798.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  So you are beginning the conversation with Kay about what it would actually cost for her to move.  So go back.  So do the role play.  And this time the housing specialist is really leading and helping.  In your previous role play, Kay was leading.  In terms of this time, the housing specialist is providing information about what it's going to take to move.  And Kay, you can have a little sticker shock, because you've been 30 months in the nursing home.  You may not know how much things cost.  So do that for five minutes.
(Working in groups.) 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  SSI is 761. 
>> ANN DENTON:  You all have had about five minutes.  So the cost and assistance worksheet ‑‑ if you are listening to me, if you would give me a round of applause.
(Applause.)
>> ANN DENTON:  Was that your whistle? 
>> PAT TUCKER:  Yes.
>> ANN DENTON:  Very good.  Very good.
All right.  So the cost and assistance worksheet is the beginning of the time where you sit down with Kay and sort of talk about what is it really going to cost to move.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Ann, I think to warn you, I've heard some of what's happening at the tables.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Let me just say it's the end of the day.
>> ANN DENTON:  Uh‑huh.
>> PAT TUCKER:  I think they've lost it.
(Laughter.)
>> PAT TUCKER:  But, you know, I'm just warning you.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Be prepared for everything.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  Well, we're going to talk about the results of the cost and assistance worksheet and what it's going to cost to move.  Tomorrow we'll continue to work with all of these forms.  So your task was the cost and assistance worksheet.  So who's got the most outrageous response? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Oh, we got one.
>> ANN DENTON:  It's them right here.  Usually it would be this table.
>> PAT TUCKER:  This table was pretty spicy.
>> ANN DENTON:  Which one?  This one, okay.  All right.  I'm afraid to know.  But there's no ‑‑ we're just going to have to dive in. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We relocated. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Cost and assistance.  So what happened?  Come on. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Well, Kay wanted to have a ‑‑
>> PAT TUCKER:  Speaker ‑‑ I mean, microphone. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Kay wanted to have her boyfriend move with her, and she could have $700 as her disability, and she was thinking that her boyfriend could work and have $800, and so the combined, that could look to be a possibility, and maybe even him being her attendant, which would bring in more money, but as we got into the background, we found that her boyfriend was just out of prison.
(Laughter.) 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  He was an ex sex offender, so we need to work that out.
>> PAT TUCKER:  What was had he in prison for? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Sex offense.  So he wouldn't be able to be her attendant.  And he probably wouldn't get a job real soon. 
So with all of that, we presented everything to Kay, and she made the choice that probably she would try to move into a subsidized apartment in the meantime and just have her boyfriend visit, and then they could work within this year so that he could get a job and then maybe they could find a landlord that would rent a small house or something to them and wouldn't consider his criminal past.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And her service horse would also be able to live there.
>> PAT TUCKER:  And didn't she want her grandchild coming to visit with her sex offender boyfriend? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  It's going to be a problem. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  But he's got a good heart, and he's changing.  He found Jesus. 
>> ANN DENTON:  And what was that last piece? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We were saying that he's now reformed.
>> ANN DENTON:  He's reformed, okay.  Okay. 
Anything at this table?  Any insights? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We did have one insight.  The first insight was that Chicago was too expensive, so we moved.
>> ANN DENTON:  They moved to ‑‑ did you move to Texas? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We moved to Texas where they pay for everything. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  What was the fair market value? 
>> PAT TUCKER:  Texas for an efficiency 650, that's in Dallas, and 720 for a one bedroom and 870 for a two bedroom.  They're okay with that. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  So we moved to Texas.
>> ANN DENTON:  Did you both move to Texas, or did I just mishear that?
>> PAT TUCKER:  They just moved to Texas.
>> ANN DENTON:  You didn't move. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We didn't move.
>> ANN DENTON:  They didn't move to Texas.  Okay.  Move to Texas. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We couldn't afford Chicago, so we moved to Texas.  And in Texas we decided we needed subsidized housing.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We didn't want an animal.
>> ANN DENTON:  She changed her mind about that. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She changed her mind because of the cost of keeping and also with taking care of it.  So we decided no animals.  We want to live in a two bedroom house where our utilities are paid for.  And they have a program in Texas that will assist you, called light up Texas, that will assist in paying your phone bill, the land line phone bill, and you will only have to pay $20 a month.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And we also would get a life alert bracelet, just in case of an emergency.  And our HMO would pay for that.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  Okay.  So I'm catching up.  Her portion of the phone is 20 bucks. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yeah.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> PAT TUCKER:  And it's a subsidized unit?
>> ANN DENTON:  Not land line.  What do you call it?  Life link? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Life line.
>> ANN DENTON:  And her HMO pays for that. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Right.  And after we finish with our housing, I think she only paid like 208 for rent.
>> ANN DENTON:  Right, 208 is her portion of the subsidy. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Right.
>> ANN DENTON:  So that becomes, all kidding aside, that becomes a whole lot more reasonable scenario. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She decided on $25 a month on bus tickets and transportation ‑‑ 
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: ‑‑ to get her to the activities that she wanted to participate in.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And the modifications, she also have a waiver program in Texas that will pay up to $6,500 for modifications, because she will need a ramp, a modified shower, and lower counters.  And they will also pay her moving fee.
>> ANN DENTON:  So cover the moving cost like the truck and ‑‑ 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  The setup.
>> ANN DENTON:  The setup. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  The setup costs, furniture and all of that.  They have a program in Texas for that.
>> PAT TUCKER:  I was going to say, Texas, I think everybody is moving. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's what we said, I'm moving to Texas.
And we also just had ‑‑ we needed $30 a month for cleaning supplies.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And that was our budget.
>> PAT TUCKER:  What about the live‑in person for ‑‑ 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She didn't want to live with nobody.  She didn't want to live with nobody.
>> ANN DENTON:  She didn't need in home care.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yeah, but they come in and out. 
>> PAT TUCKER:  I know.  So she wanted in‑home care. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I missed that.  She wanted income care plus she had plans for backup with friend, just in case, you know, one of the attendants fell through.
>> ANN DENTON:  Right.  Okay.  Anything else? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Did we have anything else? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I also had $2,500 transition to life grant that would buy my initial food and cleaning supplies and clean the place.
>> ANN DENTON:  All right.  That's great.  So it's like a $2,500 setup. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  It's one for $2,500 that is state and 2,500 Fed.
>> ANN DENTON:  Furniture, pots and pans, things like that.  Right? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And the other two ‑‑ she lives in Texas, and the other two of us decided we were going to move to Texas.
>> ANN DENTON:  And we'd be happy to have you. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes, we would.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  
>> PAT TUCKER:  I want to just do a time ‑‑ it is time.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.