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A National Onsite Two‑in‑One Training Opportunity
CIL‑NET Training
Assisting Individuals to Find Affordable, 
Accessible, Integrated Housing
Renaissance Chicago Downtown Hotel
One West Wacker Drive 
Chicago, Illinois
Tuesday, August 7, 2012
8:50 a.m. ‑ 4:45 p.m.

 

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This text is being provided in a rough draft format.  Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.   
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ANN DENTON:  I just wanted to do a quick overview and just get a sense from the group about ‑‑ that we are talking about helping individuals transition.  And that is an extremely complex task.  The timing we have already talked about a bit.  Pulling the resources together from different systems is very tricky.
And I think if we were going to sum up what we hope to talk about in the next two days, over these two days, is that when we're talking about choice, I think too often, even the best of us say, well, choice is constrained by this, that, or the other thing, and so it's okay for me to just ‑‑ to narrow, help people narrow their choices, right?  I don't think anybody in this room would tell someone what to do, but I think, though, that I'm hoping that we can help you remember how to support choice even in a constrained environment.  People need resources.  We're going to spend a lot of time on that.  People may need help to see how to make their choices real.  And they certainly need help finding housing, and they may need help maintaining housing, so all of those things go into what we're hoping to bring to you today and tomorrow.
Looking at these two statements here, who agrees with the first one? 
(Showing of hands.)
>> ANN DENTON:  Having a home is a universal human need.  How about the second one?  Without a place to call home, people with disabilities may have trouble recovering or maintaining their health, becoming self‑sufficient and reclaiming valued roles?
Okay.  I ask that only because I want to make sure that we have the same ‑‑ we're starting from the same place.  I don't think that if you don't have a place that is yours, I don't think people truly are community integrated, and I don't think people's recovery is facilitated at all.  So I just wanted to make sure that when we're talking about community integration and what it takes, that we're kind of on the same page.
Now, I know that I'm in the group ‑‑ I can tell from your introductions, that there are some Fair Housing warriors in here, and we're training one up.  We're training a new one.  But, you know, I always like to remind people, when we are talking to people about integrated housing, and you will hear from Pat and I a lot about integrated housing, it's not just a good idea.  Right?  The Olmstead ‑‑ like I said earlier about helping states write those Olmstead plans in early days, I helped my own state write their Olmstead plan.  It's kind of like, yeah, we've got to do this because it says so.  And there were people who were interested; but genuinely, sincerely motivated, not so much.  Now, because of the Department of Justice, it's become a crisis for states.  Some states have settlement agreements.  Even if your state hasn't been challenged yet on their Olmstead implementation, I think there isn't ‑‑ I can't think of a state that has done an excellent job.  If you know one, I'd be happy to learn about it.
So when we're talking ‑‑ when Pat and I are talking about community integration, we're really talking about that in the same way that the Olmstead Supreme Court decision talked about it, which is that we're talking about people who are in the community, living in places typical for adults in our communities, houses and apartments with access to the same kinds of transportation and amenities as anyone else.
There's HUD language still in force that they say people with special needs, right?  That's not my language.  That's their language.  But one of the things that we learned to say back to them is that using their language, people with special needs don't need to live in special places.  We're talking real housing and bringing supports to people in that housing.
So this is ‑‑ again, this is my words, but this is straight out of the heart and soul of Olmstead, which is that you're living among people who do not have disabilities, access to supports and services.  These are the building blocks of what people are transitioning to.
So effective housing approaches, effective housing approaches.  It's not just about housing is housing.  Effective housing approaches are all about individuals making decisions, making choices, and living lives without unnecessary or unwanted interference from anybody.
Now, there may be necessary and wanted help, that's a different thing.  But when systems put requirements on people, that is not ‑‑ that is not an effective housing approach.  There's a lot of research, and I'm looking at you because Pat and I both have a lot of background in psychiatric disabilities, and there's a lot of research that shows that the most effective housing approaches are those that support choice, that support choice, that are integrated, that are just ‑‑ the housing is housing, and the services are services.  And that's what I'm going to talk about at lunch on Thursday.
But it's not just a good idea.  It's the law.  And we know how to do this.  We know what an effective housing approach looks like.  So, therefore, any community that's stuck in the dark ages around where people with disabilities should live is stuck in the dark ages.  I mean, we know better.  The law supports us, and knowledge base supports us, research and thought leaders.
So rights and opportunities, and this is ‑‑ you know, it's preaching to the choir.  But people with disabilities have the same rights and opportunities as all citizens to choose, get, and live in integrated housing.
What do you think I mean by integrated housing?  Let's do a quick test.  What's integrated housing?
If I live in ‑‑ let's see.  If I live in a house with six other people, and I chose to live there, right?  So it's choice.  Six other people.  And it's in a neighborhood where I can go to the grocery store and get a bus.  Am I in an integrated setting? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Inaudible.) 
>> ANN DENTON:  Six other people with disabilities.  Am I in an integrated setting?  No, I'm not.  Now, if I lived in a house with six other people and they were my buddies from college, right?  Regardless of disability, blah, blah, blah, it's all about ‑‑ I'm moving out with my buddies from college.  It's a totally different situation.
How about this?  I live in an apartment in a subsidized HUD housing unit, so let's say I live in a public housing authority unit.  I'm just living in a public housing authority unit.  Is that integrated? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That depends.
>> ANN DENTON:  Well, my neighbors are ‑‑ I'm living in one of their apartment buildings, and everybody in there is a mishmash of everything.  Families, I got ‑‑ so am I integrated? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yes.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes.  How about if you're in a public housing authority building, and the public housing authority has given that building to ‑‑ for people with disabilities, am I integrated? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  No.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  Now, I'm going to get into trick questions.  How about if I'm 45 years old?  I wish I was.  45 years old, and I'm living in senior housing because you've been able to wangle me a spot in senior housing because it's subsidized and a good deal.  So you got me in, but am I ‑‑ but you got me in because of my disability, right?  And so this is some sort of a senior housing complex that also allows persons with disabilities for under the senior.  Am I integrated?  No, no, you're really not.  
Now, how about this?  How about ‑‑ I'll make it easy for you.  If I'm 63 ‑‑ or 65.  Let's say I'm 65, and I'm in senior ‑‑ the exact same scenario, except I'm in because I'm a senior, I'm in the same complex, senior housing.  Is that integrated?
Yes.  Why?  Because I'm age ‑‑ I'm there not because of my disability, and I'm not clustered ‑‑ I'm not stuck ‑‑ it's not a disability‑specific, quote, placement.  It's ‑‑ I'm in among seniors.  We're all seniors.  I'm in amongst seniors, and the seniors are not there because of disability. 
So because it's age appropriate ‑‑ now, this is ‑‑ you know, there's all kinds of gray areas.  How about this?
Now, this really is a trick question.  So I'm looking at the HUD person out of the corner of my eye, hoping she hasn't had all that training yet.
If I'm in a four plex, and everybody ‑‑ there's four one‑bedroom units, and everybody in the four plex has a disability.  Is that integrated? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Inaudible.) 
>> ANN DENTON:  It depends on that, but it also ‑‑ it counts as single family.  Four units.  That's why it's a trick question.  The answer is yes, it is, because four units or less counts as single family.  So therefore, you've got ‑‑ it's part of the HUD definitions of single family. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  (Inaudible.) 
>> ANN DENTON:  It's not covered by Fair Housing.  Yes, exactly.
So I would have to call that ‑‑ that can't be called a segregated setting because it's a single family unit.  It fits.
Okay.  Actually that told me a whole lot about ‑‑ you all's self‑ratings were right on target.  I'm kind of a little intimidated.  You all knew the answers to this.
Okay.  What do we know about effective housing approaches?  Here's the list.  First of all, we have to find a way to make the housing affordable.  We're going to spend a bit of time on that.
We really, really think we know that when housing and supports are separate, you're better off, that the outcomes for real people are improved when housing and supports are separated.  And that's because if my ‑‑ my support plan needs to be completely independent of my housing.  In other words, I shouldn't have my housing pass or fail ‑‑ I shouldn't be successful or unsuccessful in my housing unit depending on what the service provider thinks of my function.  You see the separation? 
Now, the service provider may say that they think that I'm, you know, not capable of doing this.  But when you talk about a model, a housing program, developing a program, if you separate out the housing and the services, then the service provider's opinion isn't the final determining factor, okay?
And one of the most powerful things about that, let me ask my Fair Housing expert here.  What gives me ‑‑ what makes this independent of housing ‑‑ I mean, of the service provider?  What legal piece of paper?  The lease, right? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible.) 
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Can you repeat that?  Do you want to repeat that? 
>> ANN DENTON:  The landlord tenant.
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Inaudible.) 
>> ANN DENTON:  Under landlord tenant laws, yes.  Sorry.
One of the most powerful things that we find that helps people's independence is having a lease in their name.  Do you want to talk a little bit about landlord tenant laws? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Well, as I said, I'm just a beginner when it comes to this stuff.  But I've about exhausted my knowledge.
>> ANN DENTON:  You know what he's really telling me, he's saying don't pick on me like this again. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  The thing is once you sign the lease, you're covered under landlord tenant law, and you have the recourse and the appeal process that comes ‑‑ they come with landlord tenant law.  Whereas if services and housing are combined, you don't necessarily have the rights.  And the service provider might be the one who is able to make the final determination about whether you can remain or if you choose not to accept their recommendation for their services.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes, exactly.
When we're talking about the Texas money follows the person program, the Medicaid program has a thing called qualified residences, and they will try to make that fit so it will fit with assisted living.  But a qualified residence really is not a qualified residence no matter what it is unless a person has rights of tenancy.  That's what it comes down to, and they can't be evicted for noncompliance with a service plan or nonacceptance of the service package.
So part of what we know about effective housing approaches is those things are (inaudible). 
Flexible voluntary supports are available.  The housing is decent, safe, and affordable.
When I was over on this side of the program ‑‑ and I have forgotten your name already, forgive me.  When you were talking about having a home repair background? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Willis.
>> ANN DENTON:  I was going to say William.  So I would have been close.  Willis, I was thinking, oh, my God, Willis would be a perfect person to learn how to do housing quality standards inspections because of his background.  You want somebody who can look at a housing unit in your program somewhere, you want somebody who can assess a unit, not just for accessibility, although that's extremely important, but also is it safe and decent?
>> PAT TUCKER:  And you also want them to be able to assess the accessibility.  Sometimes people do shoddy work when it comes to accessibility, and there's different types of accessibility.  I mean, there's the accessibility that you can put into a home that you can remove when you leave, and it's less costly but just as effective as putting in a permanent addition.  And sometimes landlords are more amenable when you can put in something that's going to look good, be effective, and also can be easily removed.
>> ANN DENTON:  And Pat knows from which she speaks.  She is a landlord.  So I'm going to hurry up because I didn't realize we had taken so much time.
Okay.  Let's talk about what does transition take?  And I heard some people identify themselves as housing specialists or transition specialists.  Right?  We have some of those people.  You are the most important people to an effective transition.  You're the key.
The housing specialist is the key, and the executive directors who are here and the program directors who are here, your role is to support them as they work with people and make housing transitions, because it's extremely difficult work.
So we're going to spend a lot of time this afternoon talking about how to help people explore options and make choices, and we're going to talk this morning on making you experts on how to find it.  Now, the finding is, you know, it's about persistent energy, you know, and pushing, pushing, pushing.  Finding is about what's already there and worming your way in, making friends with landlords, knowing the Section 8 person at the housing authority.  It's about that.
At the system level, the program administrators need to be the ones in the rural areas setting up dollars to flow so that you can develop housing, that includes some accessible, affordable units.  Right?  Because we don't want to do ‑‑ we don't want you to do ‑‑ to be guiding people to do development when you're going to have 50 units all in one place that becomes a disability ghetto.  I mean, the changes to the 811 program.  The new changes.  How many people have looked at that? 
(Showing of hands.)
>> ANN DENTON:  The changes to the new 811 program have remedied what people have criticized around the 811 program, building small ghettos of people, small communities of people who are just about disability.
Now, it hasn't ‑‑ some of them are really, really nice.  It doesn't take away from the fact that they're segregated settings.
Okay.  So what does a transition coordinator or a housing specialist need?  You might think you just need to be a good case manager, you need to know about public policy.  I need to know when a landlord is speaking a violation in front of you.  You need to have the skills and tools necessary to support choice, and you have to be an expert on practical assistance.  What's a good example of practical assistance?
I'm getting ready to move.  We have my service packages in place.  My waiver services are in place.  My housing voucher starts on September 5th.  Everything is ready to go.  What do I need?
What's something practical that I need? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Medication.
>> ANN DENTON:  Medication, yes.  What else?  I saw a hand. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  How are you going to get there?
>> ANN DENTON:  Exactly.  How am I going to get there? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Utilities.
>> ANN DENTON:  Utilities, you said, right?  Get the utilities turned on, food.  Furniture. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Assistive technology.
>> ANN DENTON:  Assistive technology.  Who said that?  What else? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  A ramp if needed.
>> ANN DENTON:  A ramp if needed, yes.  Scheduling transportation.  Yes.  Who's got the moving truck?  Are we using your brother's pickup, or are we using U‑Haul?  How are we doing this?  I might need a special bed.  How do we get my special bed?  I mean, it's all about ‑‑ oh, my Lord, it's all about knowing how to pull all of those things, those rabbits out of your hat.
So I want to talk to you about housing specialists, but before I do that, Pat and I are going to show you what it could look like.
So we're going to bring chairs out here.  We're going to put on a show. 
Okay.
>> PAT TUCKER:  All right.  And so you want to move into some housing.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes, I really am tired ‑‑ I'm tired of this nursing home.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Okay.
>> ANN DENTON:  I know the staff is really mean to me. 
>> PAT TUCKER:  I heard that about the staff here.  And I applaud you for wanting to move.  I think I have the right place for you.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  Well, I want to live ‑‑ I want to live near my sister now.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Well, your sister lives in a really bad neighborhood.  I think a better neighborhood would be over here on the north side.  And I got the perfect place for you.  It's a one‑bedroom apartment, so it's on the first floor.  I think you'll like it.
>> ANN DENTON:  Can I have a dog?
>> PAT TUCKER:  No, not in this place.  I don't think they accept dogs, and I think ‑‑ you know, right now, you don't need to think about a dog.  You need to focus on getting used to this new place.
>> ANN DENTON:  But all the time I've been laying here hating this place I've been thinking I want a dog.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Well, maybe in a year we'll look at getting a dog.  But right now I think you need to focus on getting you into this apartment and getting you set up and teaching you where everything is at, and then we can talk about that.
>> ANN DENTON:  But then I'll be stuck.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Well, you know, in a year we can talk about where you want to move and maybe looking at a different place, but right now this will ‑‑ I'm thinking this is the place.
>> ANN DENTON:  So you're going to take me and show me that place.
>> PAT TUCKER:  I'll meet you there.  I'm going to tell you how to get there, and then I'll meet you there, and let's see.  I get off work at 5:00.  So how about 4:00 meet me at the place?
>> ANN DENTON:  How will I get back here? 
>> PAT TUCKER:  A cab maybe.  (Laughing).
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  All right.
>> PAT TUCKER:  That was fun. 
>> ANN DENTON:  So right off the top of your head, what three things are wrong with that?
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She identified the place for you.
>> ANN DENTON:  Use your microphone.  What else? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She wasn't listening to what you were ‑‑ she was not listening.  She was placating you, but she was not really listening to you.
>> ANN DENTON:  Amen. 
Okay. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  She wasn't receptive to your natural support.  (Inaudible).
>> ANN DENTON:  You and then you. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  You had made decisions for yourself, and she was overriding your decisions.
>> PROFESSOR:  No kidding.  I really want a dog.
(Laughter.) 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Similar.  There was no pros and cons to it so that you could make a better decision. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.  Yes. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  There were reasons maybe you shouldn't have the dog right away or there could be maybe a shorter lengths of time, but that's up to you to make that decision, knowing your pros and cons.
>> ANN DENTON:  Actually that's a perfect segue, so I'm going to try to remember what you said.
>> Please use the microphones.
>> ANN DENTON:  I keep forgetting.  I'm sorry. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  This button.  Sorry. 
Having said all that, it wasn't consumer directed.
>> ANN DENTON:  Amen.  It is not consumer directed at all.  She did almost everything wrong.
(Laughter.)
>> ANN DENTON:  And she was supposed to. 
The key is informed choice.  That's what I heard in what you said.  And so, yeah, there might be a really good reason that I'm just coming out of a nursing home and that taking care of a dog might be beyond me.  Is that possible?  Right?  That's possible.  I might not be able to do that.  But she needs to let me have all the information so I can make that decision for myself, and I still get a dog if I want one. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yeah, I was just going to mention that there was no discussion about support, coming out of a nursing home, a dog could have been essential.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes, could have been essential.  There was no discussion of the dog as a support animal.
Okay.  So we're going to do it again, just about a tiny slice of it, but just to sort of illustrate the difference, and you will see if we do any better. 
>> PAT TUCKER:  No pressure.
>> ANN DENTON:  No pressure.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Hello.
>> ANN DENTON:  Hey, Pat, how are you?
>> PAT TUCKER:  I'm good.  I heard you were thinking about moving.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yeah.  Can you get me out of here next week?
>> PAT TUCKER:  We could talk about that.  Have you thought about what you want to do?
ANN DENTON:  You know, I really want to live by my sister.  She lives ‑‑ what's a suburb of Chicago?  Aurora.  She lives in Aurora.  Would that work?
>> PAT TUCKER:  Sure, if you want to live in Aurora, that's fine.  Let's talk about what you're interested in, what you would like in this place, and then we can take a look at Aurora and see what's there.
>> ANN DENTON:  Okay.
>> PAT TUCKER:  So have you thought about what you want?  Have you thought about the size of the unit, one bedroom, efficiency? 
>> ANN DENTON:  I don't think I want an efficiency, because I would like to have a bedroom with a door. 
>> PAT TUCKER:  Oh, I think that's a great idea.  And so have you thought about any special types of needs that you might want in this place or anything that you need in the place other than a door for your bedroom?
>> ANN DENTON:  Well, you know, I really want a dog.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Oh, so we need to find a place that allows dogs.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yeah.
>> PAT TUCKER:  And have you had a dog before?
>> ANN DENTON:  Well, I had a dog when I was growing up, and my favorite thing was she would jump up on the bed and sleep with me.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Ah, so maybe what we could ‑‑ so if you are interested in a dog, we could talk about how you could find a dog and, you know, there are some shelters that have dogs, and we can work on that.
>> ANN DENTON:  Oh, that's a good idea.  Shelters bother me, and so I would really love to get one from a shelter and save it.
>> PAT TUCKER:  That sounds like a great plan.  So let's talk about that, and let's go look at some places and see what we can find.
>> ANN DENTON:  We're going to look at more than one place? 
>> PAT TUCKER:  Absolutely.  We never take the first place.  You might come back to the first place, but I want to get a sense of what you really are looking for, and it's been a while since you've been in a place, so let's look at a few places.
>> ANN DENTON:  All right.
(Applause.)
>> ANN DENTON:  Yay, much better.  So I do hear comments? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Coming from a New York City mindset, you know, the housing is so limited, and asking what size you're looking for just isn't something that we can always offer.  How would you present it that way?
>> ANN DENTON:  Right.  I would still ‑‑ I think ‑‑ that's a great question.  I think that people still need the knowledge.  So I would talk to somebody about, what is an efficiency?  I mean, she assumed that I knew what an efficiency was, and I did.  But, you know, talk about what is a studio apartment, what's a garden apartment, what's a ‑‑ what do they call it in Detroit?  It's a flat.
>> PAT TUCKER:  A flat.
>> ANN DENTON:  A flat.  You know, in your community, what are all these things? 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And how much does it cost?
>> ANN DENTON:  And how much do they cost, exactly.  And so in a real interview, and you could ‑‑ and we'll talk about and you can look at the forms later.  We're really helping people explore their choices.  Now, what you said all along is, you know, this is a tight market, you don't have a lot of money to spend.  I want you to understand what might be there.  So that when we look at places, and when we see an opportunity, you'll know what it is and kind of what the ramifications are.
>> PAT TUCKER:  And also looking at ‑‑ you know, I never say to somebody, you can't afford.  I say, let's look at your budget, and let's look at how much money you have coming in and how much this apartment costs, and you tell me what you want to do.  So ‑‑ and giving people the knowledge doesn't mean that everything is available, but I may want to work toward getting that one bedroom.  It may not be right now, but to know that it's out there and that that's something that I may want to work towards, or maybe I want to move to a different location because the market is so tight.  So, you know, just having all that knowledge makes ‑‑ gives me all of the information so I can make an informed choice. 
>> ANN DENTON:  Absolutely.
>> PAT TUCKER:  As opposed to you ‑‑ again, if you have that knowledge, you can say, well, the market is tight, you really don't have that many choices.  Give me the information, let me make the choice.
>> ANN DENTON:  We've got a hand over here and then a hand there. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Playing devil's advocate and picking up on the point from New York, I think that's great in the ideal world, but you don't want to set people up for unrealistic expectation either.  You can hear their concerns.  You can hear their desires, and I fully support that.  But you also have to be leery about, say, unrealistic expectations.  Because if you're looking for a place in Aurora by your sister with a dog, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, how is that really realistic given the market?
>> ANN DENTON:  Right, and the housing specialists are the experts on that.  There's a middle ground.  What we're saying is that people need to have the information to make choices.  There's a choice that Pat and I didn't even explore, which precedes the other choices we're talking about, which is type of housing.  I may want to live in assisted living.  I don't really think that's housing, depending on how it's run.  It's not housing according to the definition, but it may be a realistic choice for me.  Exploring what that would mean and helping me make that decision is important.  I think it's important to not set people up, but it's also important to say, a one bedroom ‑‑ you can't say, a one bedroom apartment in Aurora with a dog is out of the question.  You can't say that.  You can say, I understand that, and then it's the housing specialist's job to have that information in her head about what it would take so that you could have a conversation.
>> PAT TUCKER:  Well, and if I worded it ‑‑ if we had more time, what I would have said as being the housing coordinator is, let's take a look at what the fair market rents are in Aurora.  Let's sit down at the computer and look at that and say, okay, well, the fair market rent for an efficiency or a studio apartment is this, a one bedroom is this, and how much income are you getting right now?  And is that something that's going to work?  And let's take a look at that.  I would have gone through all that if I were the housing coordinator, which doing a really small part of it I didn't have a chance to go through all of that. 
>> ANN DENTON:  We have two hands up.  I'm going to do you and then you because you've had your hand up twice. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That's exactly the line I was going with:  Size, animal, financial.  But with individuals I currently work with, and depending on the individual, I break it down into very much layman's terms with a time frame and sometimes even with a handout because people need to see it visually.
>> ANN DENTON:  People need handouts.  If you get my takeaway from this training, that is it.  People need things that they can look at after you're gone, after you leave, after you've explained something.  People need time to process information, and my observation, the longer someone has been away from living independently, the more sticker shock they're going to have around how much things cost.  I mean, if the last time I was in my own place was ten years ago, I'm going to have a different expectation about what the rent is.
One of the things you can actually do and one of the things I have done in the past is when we go out to look at apartments, I take photographs, and print those off on paper and say, you know, so you can have a sense of what we went to see, because I know the experience of looking at places, you forget what you saw, you forget what you liked, or you need time to think about it, so visually you can take those photographs and give them to people right away.  Or get the photographs from the landlord or the property managers.  
>> ANN DENTON:  One more, and then you're next, sir. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Addressing the timeline is very important because you said a week.  Could you move in a week?
>> ANN DENTON:  Yeah. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And she said we'll talk about that.
>> ANN DENTON:  Yeah.
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  But I think it's really important to deal with the timeline up front, because I've had individuals that have changed their mind because of the timeline and how long it was going to take.
>> ANN DENTON:  Absolutely.  I mean, part of an informed choice is to talk to people about, okay, if you want to move in a week, you know, we'll talk all the way through it, but the practical reality is, if you want to be out of this nursing home in a week, you're going to have to move in with your sister.  I mean, there's not anything, but given the time ‑‑ and I would never say that, what I would say is:  Here are all your choices, and if you're going to move within a week, this is one of the things you could pick.  If you want to wait, your choices grow.  The number of things you can pick from grows.  And then the person makes the decision.  Yes, sir. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Yeah.  Hello.  Oh, here it is.  So the dog lover in me needs to say, whenever somebody starts telling me about what the dog is going to do for them, you might want to have a discussion about what you're going to have to do for the dog, what kind of responsibilities are involved, because she gave a couple of cues there about how when I grew up, and of course her folks were taking care of the dog, so, yeah, just some discussion about the responsibilities of dog owners, and they cost money too.
>> ANN DENTON:  They do. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Even shelters don't give you a free dog, because they know you have to pay something.
>> PAT TUCKER:  And that would have been a really longer discussion, and it would have been part of the budgeting talk. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Exactly.
>> ANN DENTON:  It would have been part of the budgeting talk, but we never say no, you know, because people come to us for ‑‑ out of all different kinds of personal desires and longings, and it's our job to make those happen to the maximum possible.  First we have to know what they are.  I had two hands at this table. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm sorry.  One of the things that ‑‑ I don't know how it works any place except in our agency really, but we have long term relationships with the people that we work with, so if you just have somebody that you just started a relationship with, this seems like a really tricky process to engage in very quickly.  Can you say something about the lead time before that?
>> ANN DENTON:  Yes, I can.  One of the points that I was supposed to make in this part of the session is that people get better and become successful at community living through relationships with other people.  That is the magic.  That is what we think the magic is.
And so creating a relationship that's based on respect and active listening are the keys, and they have to underlie everything else that we do.  And so ‑‑ and we've already said, having some ‑‑ helping someone transition out of a nursing home is a lengthy process.  I expected her to say, no, you can't go in a week when she was being the bad one. 
>> PAT TUCKER:  Well, you know, I actually ‑‑ what I like to do, and I like to talk to people and find out where their thinking is before I start going into what the realities are or ‑‑ a week.  You know, instead of saying off the bat, a week?  Wow, that's going to be really tough.  I like to talk and get to know that person, and then we can go into, well, if you're going to do this in a week, here's what's going to need to happen in a week, and you know, is that going to be possible?  And we get into the realities.  I just assumed that we were just meeting, and I didn't want to shoot her down right off the bat with saying a week is impossible.
>> ANN DENTON:  Right, but to your point, sir, the most effective housing specialists are the ones who are able to ‑‑ it's like standing on a balance beam, for an Olympic reference.  Standing on a balance beam between hope and realism.  Sometimes hope has been so squished out of people by the way that we treat them in our system that we have to help that grow.  At the same time we don't want to set people up, and so the housing specialist's role and the work that we're going to do this afternoon around choice and exploring choice is so essential because it is the bridge through which people recover and move out. 
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I think it's also worth mentioning that a lot of these issues are not unique to someone with disabilities.  I was watching HGTV last night to go to sleep, and this woman had a $600,000 budget to buy a home.  And the real estate agent was going through exactly what we're talking about here with her.  She wanted, you know, three bedroom, three and a half bath with a perfect view within one block of this, and the house simply did not exist, and so she's going around throwing a little tantrum because she's not getting what she wants.  But in reality ‑‑
>> ANN DENTON:  (Inaudible.)
>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Absolutely.  Everyone has to make decisions based off of what's going on, what's available, and so by recognizing that people with disabilities, just like everyone else in the world, are going to have to look at reality and then make decisions, that we can't just guarantee things or get them exactly what they want because they want it, just like I don't get what I want because I want it, it gives a different perspective, and actually I'm realizing how with the real estate agent handled her and she would probably make an excellent housing specialist, because she gave her ‑‑ showed her the options, and this is simply what's available.  But let's talk about the decision you want to make, and this is your money, and they ended up very happy.  They showed her three months later and the house was perfect.  But it is good to mention that these are decisions that everyone has to make.  Everyone makes choices, and that we won't all be happy with our options, but we all get to make those choices.
>> ANN DENTON:  Exactly.  I love this point.  This is not unique to people with disabilities. 
>> PAT TUCKER:  I'm going to stop us, because it's break time. 
>> ANN DENTON:  I know.
>> PAT TUCKER:  And I'm sorry.  Hold your thoughts.  I know we had a couple hands up.  But I want to ‑‑ I know some people are looking a little tense.  So I'm going to respect that, and let's do a 15‑minute break and come back, and then we'll get the two comments.