Mod 3 


DARREL CHRISTENSON: Just had a few things to mention as follow-up from Ann's wonderful morning.

Remember when it's affordable, accessible, and integrated.

Integrated also needs to include folks with multiple chemical sensitivities.

So often we talked about integrated housing, and we think -- oops.

Sorry.

Just on the physical access for folks with mobility impairment.

But remember, we also have hearing, vision, and multiple chemical sensitivities for the integrated piece.

Also, we talked about advocacy.

Remember, you are an advocate for your consumers.

But at the same time, remember to teach people to be self-advocates.

So often I think as staff we think, well, we have the degree.

We have the professional experience.

So I'll just go over to the housing authority and talk to my good friend over there, and take care of the situation for this consumer.

You know what?

By them being able to be self-advocates, that is going to speak much louder than what your advocacy is going to do.

You may have a combination of that.

Don't get me wrong.

You may have a combination of being an advocate and they being their self-advocate and teaming up together.

But don't forget that piece of self-advocacy from a consumer.

Also, I just wanted to share a quick example of the integrated housing piece.

My career started with centers for independent living -- jeez -- back in the early to mid-'80s.

Not bad for a 29-year-old guy, right?

Thank you.

[Laughter.]

But we had -- we had a proposed housing complex for a small community, southern Minnesota.

And the dilemma was, do we support a complex with 28 units totally accessible for people with disabilities?

And this would be like an eight-eleven project.

And do we support 28 more units in a small community to increase the number of availability?

Or, do we not support it because it's segregated housing?

You know, I mean, and that's -- it's a redundant question, Bill.

Okay?  So .I'll answer my own question this time.

Thank you.

[Laughter.]

No.

Seriously, and it was a real dilemma.

Because in the small community, if you didn't have that type of housing available, then folks in that area had to travel about 100 miles north to Minneapolis and St. Paul.

And live in the big city.

So there were legitimate concerns either way.

And even back in the time, there were neighbors who didn't want "those people" in my neighborhood.

NIMBY, not in my backyard.

Because they would catch those horrible disabilities such as spinal cord injuries, MS, and the other – the other types of disabilities that their children could catch by living in the neighborhood.

So, you know, I mean we can kind of laugh about it now because it was built, a lot of folks have been benefitting from that.

But we still see that here.

30 years later.

In so many communities.

Right?

And so that's part of what we need to do in the educational piece.

And -- yeah. 

So it's education versus intentional discrimination.

And I think that's really important.

When we talk to anybody, could be from the city, county, a builder, whomever.

What I'm going to talk about this afternoon more specifically is the visitability principles and federal visitability legislation.

This is my personal passion.

Universal design principles, we'll talk about that.

And ADA compliance and public housing authorities.

So a little history background here.

Starting with the Housing Act of 1937, which requires tenants to pay 30% of household income.

Because, think about where this was in '37 that we're coming out of the depression.

And a loft of folks lost housing, and were in squatter huts and such.

First elderly-only public housing was in 1960.

And in 1961, HUD amended the definition of elderly family to include people with disabilities of any page.

1961.

You know ...part of the dilemma years ago too was, when you put elderly and disabled together in the same complex, there's a lot of problems that arise.

And that was including this unit, 28-unit I was telling you about.

When you had seniors having accessible homes in the community, they were able to stay out there.

But then you have the 25-year-old guys who were newly injured quads or paras and they wanted to play the rock and roll at 1 in the morning.

Seniors, people -- young people with disabilities, it got a little contentions.

So that's always an interesting dynamic.

And problems arose in the '80s and early '90s, because those with mental illness were now less likely to be institutionalized.

In '88, the Fair Housing Amendments Act added "handicap" to the class of individuals protected.

It is always interesting when I talk to public groups, and talk about civil rights, so many people in -- the layperson out in the community thinks, well, in '64 we took care of civil rights.

All the protests, marches.

Well, know, that was one type of group of people -- a couple of different groups of people.

But in the '70s we had the women's moment.

And out of that we had the '80s into the '90s became the disability movement.

Last summer, my wife and I were out in Philly, and we were at the Liberty Bell.

And they actually had different displays around in that area, and they talked about the civil rights for African-Americans and minorities.

They talked about the women's rights.

But you know what?

It was odd.

We didn't see anything around the liberty bell depicting disability rights in the '80s and '90s.

Nothing was mentioned.

I think they even skipped forward to the LGBTQIA community.

Interesting.

Right?

So we -- I'm going to have this all week long.

We have to become educators.

We have to educate everybody in our community.

And at least for our center, I know with a few others, Robbie in Denver, you have pictures of the disability movement in your center.

Because that way it really helps a person who's newly disabled, their family, or someone who just felt isolated.

When they come to your center and they can see pictures from the movement, it gives them a better sense of history.

Something that they can talk -- that you can talk to them about.

And say, you're a part of the bigger picture.

So certainly the civil rights and everything in housing moving forward is a part of it.

This also had included people with drug and alcohol addictions.

Remember, it's not currently using, but rehabbed.

And other problems arose.

So then in '96 the Public Housing Opportunity Extension Act streamlined the process for designating public housing projects, elderly only or only to residents with disabilities.

So it's an evolving step on a legislative process.

And you have -- this is only on a federal level, but certainly you know you have state laws and maybe even city ordinances that complement or are enforced further.

The Olmstead decision, Ann talked about this back in '01.

It's crazy, right?

It's been 19 years.

Or 18 years, whatever.

And I think if we took a snapshot, not only with Olmstead from '01, but the ADA next month will be 29 years old.

Right?

29 years ago.

And when we -- I talked to a lot of folks that are – and work with a loft of folks that are under 29.

They don't know a nation without the ADA.

It's always been.

And so when you look at it that way, from a coworker standpoint, those of you who are over 29, you might want to help your younger colleagues understand what a nation without the ADA was like.

And do some mentoring amongst your own staff. 

So that you can help them to better understand where we've come from.

Because when -- when I'm talking to groups that tour our facility, our center, you know, they don't know what it's like before.

But if you took a snapshot, a Polaroid from July of 1990 to where we are here in 2019, we have come a long way.

We have come a long way on a structural, environmental standpoint.

But when you take a look at those two Polaroids -- actually, a Polaroid in '90 -- now your phone.

[Laughter.]

We have a long ways yet to go.

And we've changed a lot of attitudes.

We have.

We've -- we've educated a lot of folks since 1990.

But people, we have a long ways yet to go.

So understanding the physical and housing program compliance.

Universal design principles in housing, we'll talk about that.

The visitability principles and federal visitability legislation.

And briefly talk about the ADA compliance with public housing authorities.

Questions yet?

Okay.

Great.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I've got one.

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  No, you need a mic.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We do at the center have photos, and that's -- and I agree with you 100%.

One thing that we have not agreed, a lot of advocates in California, who is the father or the leader, as Martin Luther King or Cesar Chavez, who do we look at.

Many of us feel that -- I forgot his name now.

Ed Roberts.

Yeah.

Because it was -- it was a '60-ish kind of thing, this happened in the '70s, but he really laid the foundation for what we needed to do.

With -- with his folks.

So just wanted to mention that.

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  And that's a good point.

Certainly, we here today are where we are because of the leaders back in the day.

The '70s.

With the Rehab Act and such.

And so we are building upon the blocks from those who came before us.

And also, just to plug for the NCIL conference next month ...

[Laughter.]

You're welcome, Tim.

It's really highlighting 29 years, and where we've come.

But what we also are looking at is, folks, we need to really nurture the growth and leadership skills of young people.

Because those, like Ed Roberts and Justin Dart and others are gone.

Others are retiring.

And we need to then -- I don't want to say fill the void, but we need to grow young people in their leadership roles.

We do.

And that's where the housing piece is certainly a part of it.

So keep that in mind when you're talking about your advocacy.

It might be a few consumers that you can nurture.

And mentor.

To help you in your housing advocacy.

Do not be afraid to do that.

So universal design.

It's the design of products and environments to be usable by all people to the greatest extent possible, without the need for adaptation or specialized design.

According to Ron Mace.

So the second bullet, it's not intended to meet the needs of 100% of the population.

Only the largest possible portion of the bell-shaped curve.

So by this I mean, you have the general public, the population in a bell-shaped curve.

It's low on one end, low on the other end, and the biggest number is in the middle.

Whether it's products, durable medical equipment, to go along with your physical environment, it's meant to really take as big a slice of that middle, that bell shape, as possible.

That, you know, you're going to have some folks who say, "Well, that doesn't fully meet my need."

And you know what?

You're going to have to say "You're right."

This doesn't.

Because, you know, for example you may have a high-rise toilet 17 to 19 inches.

If you place it at 19, you may have someone -- an adult of low height, stature, and he's like, "I need a stepstool to get on that toilet."

I think in my room, I think I have it so low that my knees are near my chin, but that's another story.

But -- you get my point, though.

It's a bell-shaped curve.

And using the measurements and designs for the greatest possible extent to cover as many people as possible.

Also includes factors for accommodating physical, sensory, cognitive, and like I said earlier, multiple chemical sensitivities.

And we need to look at that in a broader sense.

Because, if we forget that, then you know people we're talking to in the community will forget it.

All they think about is the ADA.

And I bet you that 90% of us in this room have folks who think that an apartment in a multiunit complex, an apartment has to meet ADA requirements.

Right?

You've heard that?

And it's not true.

That's not true.

So the difference being that the ADA, Americans with Disabilities Act, it's not the American Dental Association nor the American Dairy Association.

Okay, I know we are in farmland.

Okay, so bear with me.

Today it's the Americans with Disabilities Act.

That everything outside the threshold of the door, outside, common areas, that's covered under ADA.

Threshold in is fair housing.

And so they just butt up to each other.

They don't overlap.

They just complement each other.

So as a matter of detail,  you can say, "No, the unit is not covered under the ADA.

It's covered under fair housing,"Now if you look at five-foot turning radiuses, suggested three-foot doors, those types of features, that may be complementary from the ADA public areas to the apartment inside.

But it's technically not covered by the same.

Does that make sense?

Okay.

And this -- the sensory and cognitive disabilities.

You may -- for accommodations, put a railing on different, you know, maybe the stove or oven, your thermostat,  those kinds of things, that can help someone with a visual impairment.

You have the lights, strobe lights, and the sound for both hearing and vision.

Okay?

So it's not necessarily just for folks using mobility devices.

Whoa!  What happened?  Okay.

I hit the wrong button.

So the ADA does cover the common areas, parking, path of travel.

Leasing offices.

Pools.

Community rooms. 

In Arizona we see a lot of issues with the pools.

And so having access, whether it's a swingaway, chair that gets you into the water, or maybe, like, a vertical drop, or maybe -- what do they call it -- help me out here.

Where it slopes into the water.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Ramp.

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  It's not really a ramp.

It's a -- zero entry.

Thank you.

But in Arizona, we had a dilemma.

Because you want to have it -- the gate.

The gate entrance.

You want to have it high enough that kids are not able to get in.

But you want to have it low enough to comply with ADA.

And between the two laws in Arizona, there was a conflict.

And the kids won out.

So the gates to, like, an apartment complex pool is higher, so that they're erring on the side of safety for kids rather than accessibility for everyone else mobility impairment.

That's an interesting thing you sometimes run into.

Fair housing, like I said, covers the threshold of the unit from inside.

Landlord must allow reasonable accommodations at the tenant's expense.

Okay, folks.

In my 30 years working with centers for independent living, I have seen two cases, only two, where the landlord required someone to put it back to its original state.

Two.

One that I remember clearly was:  Carpeting was pulled up, put into storage, and -- it was either tile or ceramic flooring for better access for a wheelchair.

This landlord required the tenant, after they moved out, to go back into storage, get the carpeting, and re-lay it back in to make it to its original state.

What the heck??

After being in storage for a while?

You're taking this out of storage and putting this carpet back down?

Are you kidding me?

And the tenant had to pay for it.

I think there was definitely an axe to grind on that case.

But -- I said only  two in 30 years.

The reason that I believe that's the case is because we've been able to make the case that increasing accessibility increased the bottom line for them.

You can now market to 100% of the population.

I will talk more about the marketing and such later.

But -- so education, again.

Landlord reserves the right to require them to return it to the original state at the expense when moving out.

And educate the landlords to the benefits of accessibility.

All the arguments against it are not on their side.

The argument for accessibility is on our side.

Visitability principles.

This is my passion here, folks.

So new single-family, duplex and triplex, below the four or more requirements under fair housing.

There's three main minimum standards for visitability for persons with disabilities.

And up here, a woman from California said, if someone wants to come and visit me or I want to go visit my neighbor, can I do that?

And, you know, like, for example, can a neighbor go to visit down the street to watch tomorrow's game seven?

Are they able to visit?

The visitability piece.

Minimum standards.

At least one zero-step entrance.

It does not have to be front door.

It can be attached, garage through into the kitchen.

That works.

It can be the back door.

You just need one entrance.

And people say, well, what about the flooding in Arizona?

We're like, well, what about monsoon season?

You know what?

Grocery stores and everywhere else are sloped away from the building.

They don't get flooded.

Right?

No.

So you can do that -- again, new construction.

You just grade it away from the home.

Wide passage doors.

32 inches wide clearance.

Prefer 36.

Again, it works across the age group.

Because if you're a young family with a child and you're doing a stroller, and you're pushing the stroller in, wider door, zero step entrance is beneficial.

A young person using a mobility device, that works.

If you're getting that 80-inch TV in, you can get that -- movers love that too.

And it doesn't look any different.

At least a half bath or a powder room on the main floor.

The idea is, can you get into the home and do your business?

Three more features to be added.

Environmental and utility controls between 15 and 48 inches off the floor.

Audience participation part here.

Why have electrical outlets traditionally, historically been nine inches off the ground?

Sir.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  The hammer drops.

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  You were in my other session!

He cheated.

Okay.

I had a plant in the room.

It's the length of the hammer.

Nine inches.

So when builders come along, put their hammer on the ground, pencil mark it, now you have an outlet mark.

They go along, another outlet here.

Put a -- their hammer on the ground, vertically, make their mark and they can move on.

Nothing scientific.

Nothing functional at all but the length of a hammer.

I'm just telling you like it is.

Right?

No fake news here.

So by doing 15 inches off the ground, folks, there's no extra labor or extra material.

There's no extra cost.

But it's increased accessibility.

48 inches with your thermostats and such.

You brought it down.

No extra cost.

Lever door handles -- I'm sorry.

The second one.

Bathroom walls reinforced to permit attachment of grab bars as needed.

New construction again.

This is scrap lumber on the work site.

You take the blocks, put it between the studs before you cover it up with drywall or tiling.

Put it in there before.

It's lumber on the ground anyway, put it in.

That way, in the event that you want to add grab bars later, you have the reinforcement behind there.

Cost?  Zero!

Right?  It works.

The lever hardware.

Apartments used to have an upgrade, used to charge more if you were in an apartment with a lever handle.

Now it's become standard.

Cost differential?

No cost!  Okay?

To add these six features on a slab home is about an extra $100 to the buyer to put these six features in.

100 buck.

You're not pricing the family out of the home.

And you're increasing their marketability.

Right?

Now if this was made available, 100%, remember earlier I talked about the paradigm shift.

Rather than thinking, oh, my gosh, I have to go all the way up to 5% accessible, but your paradigm now becomes, my standard is 100%.

Across the board.

And if you have to work down -- okay.

But for a single-family home, single level, you do it 100%.

It's not just a token 5% or two units in a new subdivision.

Does that make sense?

Can you advocate for that?

Can you educate for that?

I see a lot of nodding.

Thank you.

Justification.

So we don't build houses like we did 60 years -- 60 years ago.

1959.

Things are different.

We have different building codes.

We have different materials for our piping, for our electrical.

Sprinkler systems.

It's not the same.

60 years later, we're changing.

We now, today, in your community, are building homes that are going to last until the year 2079.

You're not going to be around.

I'm not going to be around.

Well, some of you younger ones are.

But you're building for 60 years out.

Third bullet.

Americans move on an average of seven years.

Every seven years you're moving.

Okay?

My grandparents on the farm were there until they were in their 90s.

My mother is in the same house for the last 60 years.

My sister and I are fretting the day that she passes because she still has fourth-grade papers of mine in that house.

[Laughter.]

But she's been in the same house for 60 years.

We are not that America anymore.

We're moving every seven years.

I'm not a mathematician.

I don't play one on TV.

If you take a 60-year home, life span, every seven years, you have seven to nine families occupying that dwelling over the years.

Chances are really, really good that at least one family will find those features useful.

Right?

Houses can be marketed now to 100% of the community.

If I'm in any part of the housing industry, folks, I want a piece of that.

Because if you don't make yourself -- if you don't make your product accessible, you've eliminated a bunch of people that you can market that property to.

Okay?

In Phoenix alone, we have over 900,000 individuals with a permanent disability in the valley.

If I'm a Realtor, and I don't have an accessible product, I've shot myself in the foot by 900,000 people who potentially could be a buyer, a seller, and commission.

Because, folks, here's another visual aid.

Sorry, guys.

But I'm holding up my wallet.

I am a person with a disability.

And my money is just as green as someone who's able-bodied.

And I would say to you as a builder, developer, Realtor, my wallet's on the table.

How much of that do you want?

Or, do you want me to go on to another developer or builder or another realtor?

The point I want to make here right now, too, is: Be okay, be very -- embrace.

Embrace the idea that people make money building housing.

Embrace that idea!

Don't fight it.

Don't feel like, well, they're just taking us to the cleaners.

"All they're interested in is the bottom line."

If you understand that's probably the case, then you can be an ally rather than adversarial.

You can be an ally.

Because if you educate folks on the benefits, they're going to be on your side.

We have seen this time and time again.

The Eleanor Smith Inclusive Home Design Act, year after year, bless her heart, the representative from the state of Illinois has been a leader and champion in introducing this in the House time and time again.

There are many cities and states that have visitability  ordinances.

If you don't already, go to visitability.org.

It's hosted by NCIL, and there's so much information there.

It debunks myths and stereotypes and makes it possible for you to argue on the side of doing it.

But I really think, too often we've thought that someone is just trying to make a buck on people with disabilities.

You know what?

If I'm a developer, I want to do it for the least cost, and I want to market to 100%.

Give you a quick example.

A few years ago in Phoenix, a builder who's national came to our office, and I sat down with the individual and his architect.

And they came to me with blueprints where only two of the 28 units were going to be accessible.

Sort of that minimum, low-hanging fruit thing.

Right?

And we just looked at the plans, the square footage, and by the time they walked out of that one meeting, and it was maybe just barely an hour, 28, all 28 units were changed to be accessible, and, they were fully leased up before ribbon-cutting ceremony with the waiting list.

And what -- and the gentleman will be on a video that you'll see tomorrow at noon.

And his words, I couldn't pay enough, that he said, "Look, if my competitor doesn't do it, they're crazy.

Because it works."

That's the type of partnership that can happen.

So if -- if someone wants to make their units -- single-family or apartments, doesn't matter.

It really doesn't.

But if they're doing it because they want to make money, and that's their hot button, then work with that.

Understand that that's their hot button.

You want to make money.

You want to do it for the least cost, most effective.

Okay.

Work with that.

If someone, you feel, is wanting to do the right thing, and they have a great, warm heart for meeting the community need, and they're a great Christian, and they go to church every Sunday, is so I know I want to do the right thing for my community, use that and speak their language, if that's what is their hot button that resonates.

But find out what is really their touchpoint.

And work with that.

Because every argument that the nay-sayers would say, "Too costly, can't do that, can't change my plans.

I have six plans that have been approved by the city.

It's an automatic slam-dunk."

You know.

And when you can say, "Look, in my community, I have 900,000 individuals with disabilities."

Show them the numbers.

You're moving every seven years.

We're aging in place, whatever the term you want to use.

Aging in place.

If it's -- whatever.

It's all in our favor.

Because, think about this, folks.

Back in 1959, kids with disabilities that were – or kids that were born with a disability, like I was, a lot of them weren't surviving.

Medicine allows those young folks to survive and grow up.

If you don't have an accident midlife, spinal cord injury, brain injury, whatever, you know what?

The aging process kicks in.

Mother nature does.

Right?

And you all know full well that baby boomers are getting older and older every day.

10,000 a day. right?

And you see the numbers.

You see the numbers, of the millions of additional people over 65 in the next twelve years.

That's a market that can be tapped into.

For every person we keep out of a nursing home, [and we place them into safe, feasible, economicable, appropriate housing, we're saving taxpayer money by $40,000 a year.

We're saving 40 grand a year by having home and community-based services or accessible homes, rather than sticking somebody in a nursing home.

The arguments are in our favor.

Yes, ma'am?

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.

I just -- I had a quick question.

You did say that you had met with the developer, I believe, and they had gone from two units to the entire --

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  28.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  And they had made them all accessible.

And I was wondering, was it, did they make them visitable like you just mentioned, with those six structural changes, and/or did they also do, you know, entire, like, kitchen and bathroom accessibility?

Just so I know how to move forward when I get home.

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  It was a little bit of both.

Some had full five-foot turning radiuses.

And some were visitable, which was a bit of a lower notch.

And I should say too, the same company has won many awards for their designs.

They've replicated in Milwaukee, Miami, Colorado, other places throughout the country.

It wasn't just that one property in the Phoenix area, but they've replicated and grown their business because of that.

It's a combination between --

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Can you share their names?

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  Gorman and Company.

They're out of Milwaukee.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  I don't want to hide them.

I put them up on a pedestal for being open to it and doing it.

You had something?

Or no?

I'm not forcing you.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  All right.

So I spoke to a developer, a friend of mine, over a beer.

That was an important thing to do.

[Laughter.]

They're home builders.

So we did that, and what it was, is that it ended up, all this conversation took place, as you mentioned.

But it ended up being special features being sold as or marketed as special features.

He felt that tying it to the disability would kind of maybe get some buyers thinking about disability too soon or getting -- I don't know.

But we had this conversation, so he did that.

And like you said, all of them were sold.

And maybe it was a special feature.

Maybe it wasn't.

But they were sold.

And that means that if a person with a disability or a family with a person who has a disability bought one of those homes, it was guaranteed that any one of those homes was going to do it.

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  Yeah.

And there's another point to that too.

Is that, you know, builders will tell you, "Hey, we'll do anything that the buyer wants.

We can make any house any way that the person wants."

But there's change orders.

If you want to go from this to that, change order.

Cha-ching.

If you want to change this to that, change order.

Cha-ching.

Cha-ching.

But we argue, if you make that the standard, you may not have to cha-ching for the change orders, but you will have people using them.

Another point to that too.

Is, accessible units, single or multiple -- or apartments don't look any different.

If you have a 36-inch door with lever hardware, it doesn't look any different.

If you have backing behind the drywall around your tub and toilet, you don't see it.

It doesn't look any different.

Besides, 30 years later, grab bars, for instance, they don't look big and steel like they came out of the hospital. 

I will tell you that grab bars come in mauve.

Taupe.

And peach.

And I will tell you I'm a guy.

I have no idea what mauve and taupe are.

[Laughter.] And peach is a fruit.

But they come in decorator colors.

So Chip and Joanna can come in and do the fixer-upper and it looks nice.

These features don't make it look like it's for a niche population.

It doesn't.

And the more that you understand that, the more that you can advocate for that.

Yes?  Over here.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  We're actually working on a universal design ordinance right now specifically for Lucas County but we're looking to potentially try to push it further on a state level in northwest Ohio.

And one of the issues or things we're working on trying to decide is, in your experience, have you found the incentive-based like ordinances that give tax breaks, is that enough to make a large adoption rate – 

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  No.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  -- or do you think it has to be stone cold in the law?

Because it sounds like it needs to be in the law which is where we were thinking.

But the problem is the home builders association is working against us on this.

What I say beyond talking about the facts, which should be enough. 

What are other strategies, I guess, to bring them on board?

If they're on board there's no resistance.

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  That's a great point.

Thank you for that.

The builders associations are always going to be against change.

That is one group that is, admittedly, and they've admitted that they are the slowest group of people to embrace change.

So that's going to be the case.

What you can do, though, is look to the other communities that have passed visitability.

And -- actually, NCIL is working with AARP, and soon we'll have a report out on updated information about how implementation is going on visitability.

You can certainly point to other cities, other states that are doing it, but you're right.

If you get the builders association on board, you've got it made.

But it's -- it can be a tough sell, because they're just resistant to anything.

Even if that change means extra money in their pocket.

One more?  All right.

Last one.

AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I'm Ashley from the Toledo-Lucas county as well.

Some insider information.

We've been working with our Habitat for quite a while.

They do have what I would consider fairly universal design.

Zero-step entrance to their new homes.

One thing that we found in the process in the first year, we made a lot of recommendations and some they took and some they didn't.

One of them that I was really surprised that they didn't take was the lever doors.

They still had the round knobs.

So I talked to the guy, and I said, "Why did you go with the round knobs?"

And he goes, "I don't think we can get those -- we can't get those from our supplier for free --" or whatever.

A lot of the Habitats work with a supplier.

And he says, let me look into it.

He calls back and he said, "It was just a check box on a screen that I didn't know how to get to.

When I called Habitat, they showed me how to get to it."

If any of you guys are working with Habitats that are requiring a lot of their product for free from suppliers, it's sometimes as simple as an ask.

DARREL CHRISTENSON:  How beautiful is that?

Right?  Good job.

All right.

Thank you much, folks.

 [applause]